Space as Teacher | Lorenz Sell
📑 Chapters
00:00 - Introduction and Lorenz
02:47 - About the Burning Man experience
06:20 - Lorenz talks about Sutra
11:39 - How to build a relational space
16:45 - Importance of the space
29:23 - Role of VR in relational spaces
32:56 - Jiani’s recap of the episode
34:41 - Lorenz at 11 years old
36:50 - Challenges that Lorenz had to overcome
39:08 - Lorenz’s magic
Watch the full episode here.
💕 Story Overview
Welcome to S5E8 of the @MAGICademy Podcast! Today we welcome Lorenz Sell as a guest for the show. Lorenz is a technology entrepreneur and the co-founder of Sutra, a platform designed to facilitate meaningful group learning experiences online. He has nearly two decades of experience building technology companies, focusing on how software can enhance user awareness and connection.
We talk long and hard about human connections, spaces, and peace. Especially what these concepts mean and how we are supposed to see and live our life experiences to find meaning in them.
In this episode, we discuss the importance of spaces for heartfelt conversations and authentic human connections, the emotional quality of relationships, vulnerability and the importance of feeling seen and felt, the role of new technology in relational spaces, and much more!
Neurological Impact of Burning Man Experience: A study published in Nature Communications examined the transformative effects of secular mass gatherings like Burning Man. The researchers found that 63.2% of participants reported having transformative experiences so profound that they felt radically changed. These experiences were associated with increased feelings of connectedness to all humanity and a greater willingness to help distant strangers, suggesting neurological changes related to social cognition and behavior. The study also found that these prosocial effects persisted for at least six months after the event (1)
Neurological Impact of Authentic Connections: Neuroscientific research reveals that social connections are processed in brain regions similar to those managing survival threats. Strong social bonds help us reduce stress responses and trigger neural pathways associated with protection and support (2). Among many factors, authenticity can potentially play a crucial role in fostering meaningful human relationships. Research has also shown that individuals who exhibit higher levels of authenticity tend to experience greater relationship satisfaction and overall well-being (3). For leaders, having authenticity increases work satisfaction for talents, and as a result, generates more engagement (4).
Embodied Receptivity vs. Following the Conversation: There is a deeper sense of “being in the conversation.” The ability to keep track of what the other person is saying and repeat it is good, but when someone is really in the conversation with you, the response is different. People connect because they are feeling and resonating with each other. And that’s the level of conversation that must be reached to have a successful connecting space.
Harnessing VR’s Space-Building Potential: Incorporating VR within mindful practices such as spaces to connect with others can help participants focus on the present moment, reducing anxiety and enhancing emotional regulation. Tailored environments can serve as calming spaces, encouraging users to engage mindfully rather than excessively or compulsively (5). According to Flow theory, XR can also enhance engagement positively related to a person’s perceived capacity and goal achievement (6).
⭐ What’s Lorenz’s Magic?
He is very receptive and humble. He is able to respond and adapt to social situations in a way that creates magic, joy, and happiness for others.
Conclusion
In conclusion, when creating relational spaces, recognizing that everyone has unique backgrounds and experiences is crucial for effective communication and teamwork. Each person interprets situations differently, making it essential to foster an environment of receptivity where team members feel heard and understood. When leaders create a safe space that encourages vulnerability and authentic feedback, it enhances the quality of conversations, allowing individuals to express their concerns about their roles and leadership openly.
Engaging in meaningful conversations requires more than just active listening; it demands a deeper connection where participants genuinely empathize with one another. This level of interaction fosters real understanding and rapport, which is vital for creating a successful collaborative environment. Meanwhile, the use of virtual reality presents both opportunities and challenges. While it allows individuals to explore different perspectives through immersive experiences, the extent to which people can truly connect and feel understood in virtual spaces remains uncertain, for now.
If you would like to stay tuned with our future guests and their magical stories. Welcome to join us.
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Yudkin, D.A., Prosser, A.M., Heller, S.M., McRae, K., Chakroff, A., & Crockett, M.J. (2022). Prosocial correlates of transformative experiences at secular multi-day mass gatherings. Nature Communications, 13.
Eisenberger, N. I. (2013). Social ties and health: a social neuroscience perspective. Current opinion in neurobiology, 23(3), 407-413.
Rivera, G.N., Christy, A.G., Kim, J., Vess, M., Hicks, J.A., & Schlegel, R.J. (2019). Understanding the Relationship Between Perceived Authenticity and Well-Being. Review of General Psychology, 23, 113 - 126.
Wirawan, H., Jufri, M., & Saman, A. (2020). The effect of authentic leadership and psychological capital on work engagement: the mediating role of job satisfaction. Leadership & Organization Development Journal, 41, 1139-1154.
Seabrook, E., Kelly, R., Foley, F., Theiler, S., Thomas, N., Wadley, G., & Nedeljkovic, M. (2020). Understanding how virtual reality can support mindfulness practice: mixed methods study. Journal of medical Internet research, 22(3), e16106.
Taylor, A., tom Dieck, M. C., Jung, T., Cho, J., & Kwon, O. (2024). XR and mental wellbeing: state of the art and future research directions for the Metaverse. Frontiers in Psychology, 15, 1360260.
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Lorenz Sell is a technology entrepreneur based in New York City, recognized for his contributions to online learning and community engagement. He is the co-founder of Sutra, a platform designed to facilitate collaborative learning experiences, emphasizing the importance of connection and awareness within communities.
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Jiani (00:03.598)
Okay, so I will manually pause the upload.
Jiani (00:24.398)
Hmm.
Jiani (00:32.942)
Okay. Ready. Welcome to Magic Academy podcast. And today we have a special guest, Lawrence, and he has been in a very interesting space in the past decades. He has been a software engineer building software technologies to advance and help building human connections in the past few, few many years. And now he is
building this authentic connector called Sutra where people can get connected and he is facilitating very authentic deep relational relationship with participants in his space. So that brought me a very interesting topic. How would a technologist or a technology builder, a developer, create a space that facilitate transformative
human to human authentic connections. And how in the future with all the advancement in technologies can humanities continuously to connect and grow and continuously flourish. So welcome to our podcast and welcome Laurence L. Thank you very much.
Lorenz Sell (01:55.514)
Thanks for having me, Johnny. I'm really excited to be here.
Jiani (01:58.766)
Thank you very much. And so the first question is, you have been creating spaces for a lot of guests, thought leaders, visionaries in transformative human development and relation building and leadership in that space. How, um, how would you introduce yourself in a unique way that the world has not heard about yet?
Lorenz Sell (02:25.114)
That's a tall order. Well, I can share this that 12 years ago, I had a mystical experience that changed my life. And this happened at Burning Man. Burning Man has been a big part of my life and something that's always touched me or that's created this deep curiosity is how do we bring that quality of being, that quality of generosity and kindness and love?
Jiani (02:28.27)
haha
Lorenz Sell (02:54.394)
and presence that I experienced at Burning Man into the outside world. And so I had this mystical experience and the heart of it was basically a visceral experience of world peace. And I'd never thought about peace before. It wasn't something that I'd spend a lot of time on. But I came out of that with this deep sense of purpose that this is what I wanted to be in service of. And I've been building startups my whole life since 2003 when I started my first company. And so it was natural for me to start thinking about.
how the world that I was familiar with, specifically like internet companies, could somehow bring more love into the world. And that's really become the heart of my journey since then, which was in 2011.
Jiani (03:40.75)
That's wonderful. Can you... I'm so curious about the Burning Man experience of pure peace. Can you share with us a little bit more of what kind of peace that you felt?
Lorenz Sell (03:58.554)
To be honest, I'm not sure how to explain it or convey it. It wasn't quite in the sense of pure peace. It was more peace on an energetic level on the planet. And a big part of what I've tried to understand since then has been what does that mean? And that really brings, has brought me to this
relational work that we do today. I think the simplest way that I've been able to somehow simplify it almost to the point of silliness is that when you have interaction at sufficiently deep levels of awareness, peace is inevitable. And so the question is, how do you cultivate that quality of awareness and quality of presence? And that doesn't mean there isn't conflict, there isn't things that don't come up, but...
when I can be present to the things that come up and when I can communicate about them in a way that you can be present to those things as well and I can be present to you, then we have the conditions for a completely different quality of connection and communication. And for me, that brings us much closer to peace because it allows us to be present to what's in the space, to the space of our interaction, to the space of our interbeing.
and allows us to navigate that with intelligence in a way that invites more creativity. And I think the capacity to do that isn't something that you can just read about in a book. It really requires you to develop the capacity to be with everything that's present, to be with something that might be uncomfortable or challenging, to be...
Jiani (05:38.798)
Hmm.
Lorenz Sell (05:52.09)
present in this way with another person to really hold space for them and to somehow be willing to navigate that even though it may be uncomfortable or deeply challenging. And that's really become the heart of the work that we do today is about creating spaces and specifically learning experiences that in one dimension might have some particular content aspect to them, but in another dimension,
invite people to practice this new way of being, invite people to practice being with each other in this way, in the context of whatever the content might be.
Jiani (06:34.158)
I like that. I've never been to Burning Man, but I've seen photos of how intense that experience can be. I think one of the closest peaceful experience I personally experienced.
Lorenz Sell (06:46.33)
Hmm.
Jiani (06:56.846)
is when I was doing meditation, even it's kind of like enclosed space, you and the space there's like not like Burning Man is like interconnection. But just based on that experience, I was like doing meditation and I and I and I felt a sense of bliss, like everything's so perfect. Everything's so beautiful. And you feel so happy and content and like
And when you open your eyes and you walk down the street and you see everyone, you just like to give everyone a hug. It's like, hi. I think that's the closest peaceful experience that I've experienced. Yeah, you're very interesting. So.
Lorenz Sell (07:32.442)
Hmm.
Lorenz Sell (07:41.626)
Hmm.
Jiani (07:45.198)
happy to curious to learn more. I think that's kind of transformed into the work that you're doing with Sutra and curating this space. Can you share with us a little bit about, you know, about Sutra, its mission, its vision and its impact as of now?
Lorenz Sell (08:03.898)
Sure. Yeah, and our vision is a peaceful world. And so as I shared a big part of how we
what we believe are the building blocks of a peaceful world are what we call relational capacities. And relational capacities are things like deep listening, empathy, attunement, presence, the capacity to be with difficult emotions. And these aren't things that we just learn from a book, right? We need spaces where we practice these capacities and...
One of the insights that we had, my wife and I who started Sutra in 2015, was that a learning experience can be a vehicle for that. So shortly after that mystical experience I told you about in 2011, my wife and I started a different company called Heartbeat and it was an e -commerce platform where independent creators could cross promote each other's products. And we were trying to build a network of mutual support.
And that didn't work out, but around 2015, we participated in a massive learning program from the ULab where they had 30 ,000 people and they put us into small groups. And it was one of the first times in that timeframe that I felt a deep level of connection with strangers online. And so it really crystallized this idea that the way that connection happens is through small groups. Like, you know,
You might be in a community with 100 or 1 ,000 people or like Burning Man. You go to Burning Man, it's 70 ,000 people. You can't feel connected to all of those people. You feel connected to a small subset of those people like your camp or some small group that's working on something. But if that connection is really strong, then you feel connected. You can feel connected to a much larger community of people. And so this was one of the insights that.
Lorenz Sell (10:07.034)
I had coming out of that experience in 2015 where we participated in the ULive program. And also just noticing how by being together in a supportive space, we could also practice being together in a new way and that this was really powerful. And so the insight for us or the inquiry really for us with Sutra has been how do we help more people create spaces like this where...
The content can be anything. The content might be business and marketing or permaculture. It doesn't have to be mindfulness specifically, but the way of being that's invited into the experience invites this like secondary developmental aspect. And that's what I feel begins to move the needle towards this thing that we call peace, which again, isn't necessarily like this quality of bliss or this quality of, you know,
agree, always agreeing, it's, it's more just capacity to really hold space for the reality of life. And, and, and the necessity of that, to be practiced in the reality of life, right? It's not something you just practice in a retreat, or you go off somewhere and in a cave and meditate that you that you practice this in life. And so a learning experience has this very practical, tangible aspect to it, right? I'm learning about something that's helping me.
with something I want to do in life. Like maybe I want to get better at marketing or better at this or that. That's why I'm participating in a learning experience. And so there's a certain reality factor to it. And so when you combine that with this quality of presence and like an awareness of the way of being that's invited into how people come together for that learning experience, there's something really magical that happens. Right? Your podcast is called Magic Academy, right? I think that's...
To me, that's the magic is this intersection or awareness of our way of being and what we're learning. That it's not just about content and, you know, like thinking, it's a much more holistic view on the mental, emotional, and physical aspects of who we are and how we show up in the context of learning. And then how...
Lorenz Sell (12:33.69)
whatever we might be learning then gets applied in that context, right? These aren't different things like the way I see the world, the way that I experience the world, the way that I respond to the world, whatever I'm learning is situated in that context. Whatever I'm learning gets applied in that context. So to me, it only makes sense that when I learn, that entire context is also somehow invited, a reflection on that context. Who am I in this learning experience?
How do I relate to the other learners? How do we learn to relate to each other at a much deeper level of awareness so that we can relate to the content at a much deeper level of awareness so that we can then apply that content in the world from a much deeper place of awareness? And that's really the heart of what we try to deliver on or understand how to deliver on with Sutra.
Jiani (13:25.23)
Yeah, that gets me very curious. In our previous conversation, you were like, space is the teacher. So I think that kind of resonates right in, you know, what you just mentioned. So it's about curating a space where people are able to connect authentically on a deep, deep level and feeling that peace, where they feel safe to be themselves, to communicate with each other, to relate to each other.
And once they're in that peace state, feels like they are all ready to learn and absorb and apply. So it's actually like a deep learning that I've kind of getting a sense of that. So, um, it feels like an art and science for people who are brand new in the space and.
They may wonder, okay, yeah, I understand the importance of a deep relational space. How do you actually build that? Are there any?
frameworks? Are there any structures? Are there any key questions you start by asking yourself or the team? How? Yeah, how do you? So yes.
Lorenz Sell (14:53.178)
Hmm.
Lorenz Sell (14:57.818)
Yeah, I think it's really a matter of understanding that what you're working with is receptivity. And they're depending on what a person's background is or relationship to some of this language. That can mean different things, right? It's also important not to overcomplicate it. Like the most simple expression of receptivity is listening, right? So creating a space that invites people to
to listen more deeply in creating a space that invites people to notice what's coming up for them internally. So there are, they might be offered some content and then there's an opportunity for a moment of stillness and just noticing how does that land for you? Any thoughts or feelings or emotions or to invite them into a breakout and offer them an instruction to really listen to the other person to.
suspend judgment to not feel like they have to respond right away, right? To give them permission to just listen without needing to think of something intelligent to say in response. And I think gradually just expanding a person's relationship with their own listening, and first that might just be what they're hearing, and then inviting them to notice a broader spectrum of
what might be present for them, what comes up for them emotionally, what comes up for them physically. These are all in the broad category of what I would call receptivity. And that's really the foundation of this kind of work. And I think that really begins with the convener, the instructor, the teacher, whoever is bringing the people together, their own receptivity to who they're speaking to.
to what the participants might need, where they're at, how to meet them where they're at, how to take them on a journey that opens up this territory. I think there are some really great resources out there. For example, the Presencing Institute, which is founded by Otto Scharmer, who's a professor at MIT, has a great body of work called The Four Levels of Listening. And this is one of my introductions to listening that also really helped me.
Lorenz Sell (17:24.218)
expand my own, my initial relationship to listening, which is they break it into four levels. So there's, it starts with downloading, then there's factual, empathic, and then there's generative. So downloading is where it just kind of like, I know what I know, and I don't really pay attention to any other evidence outside me. Factual is much more scientific, is that I compare what I know against like evidence that I collect in the world. Empathic is where, you know, I also really tune into
how what another person's perspective might be. You know, I put myself, I'm willing to put myself in into their shoes and see the world from the view of another person. And generative is that I'm receptive to what wants to emerge, you know, in any given situation, any given moment between a group of people. There's there's some possibility that that you might call that's that's emergent. And what happens when?
all the people in the space are somehow receptive to that. They begin to tune into what's the highest possibility that can emerge between us. And then there's a shift in the quality of listening, right? I'm not just putting myself in your position to see the world from your view, but I'm actually putting myself into this broader, you use this term, the space as the teacher, right? So like, what does that mean? What does it mean the space is the teacher, right? You have to somehow wrestle with that and a deep.
in a deep way. And again, it comes back to this quality of receptivity. If the space is the teacher that includes me, that includes you, that includes every attribute of this experience. And so I said, like, empathic is where I put myself in your place, and I try to see the world from your view and feel the world from your view. At this generative level, I'm doing all of that and more. I'm just putting myself in the place of this moment.
and trying to be receptive to everything that's there and how can I be in service of what wants to emerge here. And so, you know, what I've described here is a pretty broad spectrum from something very tangible to like scientific listening, from scientific listening to this, maybe some people might call it a little more alternative point of view. And I think that's the whole spectrum right there, like in terms of...
Lorenz Sell (19:44.25)
if you're creating an experience, if you're interested in bringing this quality of presence and being, is really first understanding where you are on that spectrum, and then understanding where your participants are, and then gradually creating the steps to expand on this understanding of listening and receptivity.
Jiani (20:12.174)
I love that. As you were describing it, I'm just visualizing the four levels. And I'm reflecting, I think in our day -to -day lives, we are probably most likely to be in level one and level two. And for people who we...
Lorenz Sell (20:20.506)
Hmm.
Jiani (20:39.086)
probably have like a personal relationship who are our friends, family members, probably we can go to level three. And level four is very interesting. It's...
It's that takes a lot of careful design because as I was imagining, if you were doing like teamwork in the workspace and a leader comps comps, or there's many leaders in the team and they're trying to develop a product or something that help the customers, people, or even the internal teams.
How can a whole team, how can a leader or facilitator curate a space that guides people from level one, two, three, all the way to four?
It's going to be something very interesting. I have you, can you share with us a story where in Sutra or beyond that when you're facilitating the space, a lot of people coming with that level one readiness. And then how did you.
notch them. How did you notch them all the way from level one all the way to like level four where there's like consensus co -creation for the future as they not only take perspectives but they're also co -creating a possibility one possibility or many possibilities in the near future.
Lorenz Sell (22:30.938)
I think it really starts with the person convening, whether it's the leader or whoever is bringing people together. And for me, the best way is with authentic vulnerability. Whether I'm working in the context of our team, like with employees. So.
And there's something that's that if I'm expecting people to, you know, step into this deeper generative quality of listening, I have to be willing to communicate from a place of much deeper vulnerability and just sharing what's really present for me. So if I'm saying I'm having, and this happens all the time. Well, let me give another example. I've been in many spaces.
where I think the biggest challenge is that it doesn't feel entirely safe to share what's really present for you, especially if you're in a working environment where there's like a boss or something, right? So things might come up for you as a consultant or employee in that space.
And there doesn't as much as it might be an environment that at some level invites everybody to share what's really there for them. It doesn't quite feel like that's the reality. And so in that context, whether you're the leader or whether you're, I don't know what to call the next level, like the employee, I think in the talent, that's a beautiful word for it, the talent, right?
Jiani (24:21.998)
The talents.
Lorenz Sell (24:27.674)
I think it's up to either party that wants to create this kind of space to have the skillfulness and the courage.
to have a vulnerable conversation in the right context, right? So maybe something's coming up for you with a superior and...
maybe sharing that in the context of the whole group isn't quite appropriate for that very sensitive thing, right? So maybe then what's more appropriate is to approach that superior and say, hey, like this is coming up for me and I really want to like bring this into the space so that we can be, so that we can both be present to it, right? And certainly if you're in the leadership position, it's the same thing. I think it's quite common that things come up in the context of any working relationship, like frustrations, challenges, right?
And it's very natural to maybe just push them to the side and say, Hey, I'm not, this is not what the space is about because it also can feel uncomfortable to talk about some things or, or the opposite is that you respond with aggression, right? Some deadlines aren't met. And so you're, you, you know, you, you, you make a, like, you express that in a, in a more aggressive way. And I think it requires, um, a certain level of practiced skillfulness to,
Jiani (25:33.326)
Hmm.
Lorenz Sell (25:52.858)
find a way to open up what's in the space. Because that's the whole thing about the space, the space is the teacher. For that to be true, we, everybody who's in the space needs to have an awareness of what's in the space. And that includes my vulnerabilities, my insecurities, the things that are coming up for me, and the things that are coming up for you. And so if you're in a leadership position, it's on you to create the conditions for that quality of conversation.
And that starts with you. You can't expect your employees to do that for you. You can, you can model it yourself by saying, Hey, like this is what's coming up for me. I'm not exactly sure how to respond. Right. I just know that I want to have a clear space with you. And so I'm sharing like what's present for me, not in a way that says that you're doing something wrong, but in a way that says they like this, I don't, I almost don't know what to do with this. Right. And I think the same in, in the, in some ways also true if you're.
Jiani (26:29.294)
Hmm.
Lorenz Sell (26:49.882)
holding a learning space or a community, that it starts with the way that you model that to your participants from a place of deep authenticity. If you're trying to create a relational space, right? A relational space, I think the defining characteristic of it is that what's in the space comes into relationship and it's human. Sometimes it's chaotic, it's messy, it's real. Like things come up, it's just the nature of...
of being human, but the level of awareness with which we respond, that we have a lot of control over. And so if you're running a relational experience, sometimes it's not this like super smooth thing, like things come up, how do you respond to that with vulnerability and authenticity? And in my experience, if you can just own it and speak about it and be vulnerable, whether you're...
leading a learning experience or a team, that then creates the conditions for people to respond in a similar way. And then you get to discover how to navigate territory together. Because it's also, it's not like a once and done thing. Like you can get into the best place ever with somebody close in your life. You were so complete. We've talked about everything, processed everything. And guess what? Stuff is going to come up again, right? It's just the way it is.
Jiani (28:05.678)
Hmm.
Jiani (28:17.358)
Hmm.
Lorenz Sell (28:18.65)
That's life and I think that's fine. But we always, for me, the relational practice is about always coming back to how can we communicate about this in a way that it just becomes something that's in our space. It doesn't block the lines of connection between us. And in fact, if we can really...
become present to whatever it is in the space between us. That actually becomes a line of connection. Then that thing that maybe is creating a disconnect between us, if we can both be real about it, no matter how uncomfortable it is, and often in the most significant of situations,
Jiani (28:49.198)
Hmm.
Lorenz Sell (29:08.474)
The thing to deal with or communicate about is very uncomfortable. Somehow it touches our deepest insecurities. Those are the things that matter the most. It's not these casual things of how are you, what's going on. It's these deeper... Right, exactly. Oh, I'm fine. But that often is masking, like a deeper reality that isn't being communicated. And that's the hardest reality to communicate about because that's where connection happens.
Jiani (29:21.774)
Oh, I'm fine. Thank you.
Lorenz Sell (29:36.666)
And so finding a level of appropriateness, right? What is appropriate to communicate at this level of our relationship or in this context of working, our working space or learning space and finding a way to continually open that up in a deeper levers and learning a way to communicate about the things in that space that are most significant, right? The things that maybe are creating a blockage where I can't.
fully express myself or be myself or you can't fully express yourself or be yourself in this working or learning space. That then if we can find a way to really hold that in a space of shared awareness where it doesn't rupture the relationship but rather just become something that we can be with, that becomes real connection, right? That becomes authentic, real relationship. And that for me, that changes everything.
Jiani (30:19.278)
Mm.
Jiani (30:27.278)
That's kind of, I think the key from what you're mentioning, the key is like the ability to be vulnerable, to be authentically vulnerable. And people needs to acknowledge and appreciate that sense of deep vulnerability and respond with deep empathy.
acceptance, acknowledgement and say, yes, this is what I hear, this is what the blockage right now in here. So I'm hearing it, let's embrace it and now let's kind of set it aside and then let's kind of move on beyond the blockage or just leave it there and then let's explore other spaces. So I think...
just like an X -ray. If the communication takes shape, we take an X -ray and say, hey, this is some blockages in here, which is OK. We're going to deal with it. And then let's explore something else, whether it helps to resolve the blockage or acknowledge and move on to its surrounding spaces.
Lorenz Sell (31:40.826)
I don't think that you need to, I think it's important to be very precise in what we're talking about here. The key...
function here is feeling, is to feel something, right? Is that there's something that comes up and there are different levels at which I can receive that. I can hear it and it becomes an intellectual process and I can also feel it in the sense of if something that I did is having an impact on you or if there's something in our space that...
you don't necessarily feel comfortable expressing. I can feel that. I can just be receptive to it in my body. And for me, that's the building block of safety is that I feel you feeling me. And in that sense, we don't need to put it to the side or for me to repeat to you what I'm hearing is this and that and this.
Sometimes.
sometimes doing that.
Lorenz Sell (33:00.346)
doesn't offer this quality of feeling felt. And that's, it's such a subtle territory, right? Because I can hear what you said and I can repeat it back to you and say, so what I'm hearing is, and it's entirely an intellectual process, right? But when I'm with you, and this is what I call this quality of attunement, is that I feel you. And if I'm speaking from that place, that's a very different,
Jiani (33:17.038)
Mm.
Lorenz Sell (33:30.458)
quality of communication. And so really what we're talking about is how do you create a situation of embodied receptivity? And then from that place, if I really feel you and you feel me and we somehow meet each other, the response can be organic and natural. It doesn't have to be, like sometimes it is important to restate and say, you know, what I hear is this and I can understand this. And because I feel,
Jiani (33:58.286)
Mm.
Lorenz Sell (33:59.386)
Because you feel that I'm feeling you, those words take on a different meaning. I've been in situations where someone will repeat what I said, but they don't feel me. And I can feel that. I can feel that they're just kind of, it's almost like they're trying to check a, yeah, they're just trying to check a box and move it to the side. It's like, okay, what I heard from you is this, and then great, we've taken that care of that box of you feeling heard. But it's not the same as feeling felt.
Jiani (34:12.654)
formulaic responses
Jiani (34:25.262)
Yeah, so it's actually the opposite. It's like, yeah, you're definitely not hearing me. You're just repeating, okay, so here's that. Maybe not, maybe not.
Lorenz Sell (34:34.714)
Yeah, maybe, maybe not, right? Maybe not. But I'm just saying that the deeper dimension of creating a relational space is that I feel felt by you, right? That I feel felt. And that can mean that I feel heard, but there's this deeper quality of like, I'm with you.
Jiani (34:58.286)
I see you, like I hear you.
Lorenz Sell (35:00.922)
Yeah, yeah. But, but, see, this is this, this, I think it's really important. Like, like I see you, I hear you, I feel you. They have slightly, they have these like textures to them. Right. And, and I think the, for me to be with you, for me to be with you in a relationship as a human being, there, there is a, there's an intellectual quality there. There's an emotional quality, there's a physical quality in this, there's a, there's a deeper quality, right? So for me to see you,
Jiani (35:13.902)
Mmm.
Lorenz Sell (35:30.234)
at a deep level is to really, is to be with you. It's to receive you, right? For me to see you is to really receive you, right? Then I receive you at a level like emotionally, like physically, I feel your presence in my body, right? Like mentally, I hear what you're saying, but then it becomes a much deeper form of data in my physical lived experience. And then like, if I receive you, right? Then I see you, then I'm like, I'm with you.
Jiani (35:37.262)
See.
Lorenz Sell (35:59.962)
I'm with you and that's a very different quality of relationship.
Jiani (36:04.526)
So embodied relationship like mental mind, a mind body spirit. That's high. The three levels of connection, not just cognitive.
Lorenz Sell (36:13.85)
Yeah.
Lorenz Sell (36:19.386)
Right, exactly.
Jiani (36:21.614)
That's great. And that reminds me of, I think the next question is about the technologies, because the moment that you're talking about that sort of connectivity, the first thing that I...
come to my mind is like virtual reality. You can, like, I can be put in the avatar of you, or you can be put in the avatar of me and going through the experiences as that particular person to develop that sort of deep empathy. I feel like the potential challenge of that methodology is that people may not have the lived experience or
these um wire rings of feelings and and um perceptions and sometimes if you were to take on that particular person would that be a potential challenge if they haven't been through some lived experience together i don't know what do you think
Lorenz Sell (37:25.658)
That's a good question. I think there's...
Lorenz Sell (37:31.93)
I think there's two sides to that story. So on one side, there's a lot of benefit to being able to practice a new way of being in a space where you feel entirely safe, right? With a virtual avatar to really practice a different way of communication or a different way of responding to a situation. I think that could be really, really powerful. And as...
virtual reality technology becomes more advanced, it's likely to become more and more integrated with our nervous system. So there'll be a much more vivid sense of reality to those. And on the other side of that, there's also the danger of, is it possible to really feel and feel felt in a virtual environment? And I don't know the answer to that question, right? Is it possible to, you know, like,
Here I am, and you could be a virtual avatar, right? But would I be able to really feel you, right? What am I feeling on the other side of that screen? Like here in this context, I can be with you and so you show up in my physical system in a particular way. I'm not sure if that's present in a virtual environment. I'm really not sure to what extent that may be present in a different way. And to what extent?
Jiani (38:50.126)
Hmm.
Lorenz Sell (38:59.898)
being in a virtual environment can also disconnect you from reality, especially as the virtual environment becomes increasingly more high resolution across the different dimensions of human experience. So I think there's a lot to, there's a lot of potential benefit and there's potential risk. Inevitably, it's inevitable that this is something that's becoming more,
Jiani (39:05.678)
you
Jiani (39:12.078)
Hmm.
Lorenz Sell (39:29.242)
mainstream and I think like anything else, whether that's VR or AI, it's really coming back to the level of awareness with which we are in relationship to it. It's like anything in life, whether it's drugs or sex or AI, VR, anything. Nothing is intrinsically bad. Nothing is intrinsically evil.
Jiani (39:30.574)
Hmm.
Jiani (39:42.542)
Hmm.
Jiani (39:51.534)
Hmm.
Lorenz Sell (39:57.69)
the relationship we have to it and the way that that compensates for what might be missing in our lives. That's what there is to really be aware of. And I think similarly, you know, where VR becomes an escape for something that's missing for us in our lives, like real human connection, because then you get to hang out with your virtual avatars and it's all like perfect. Then that is maybe a little more dangerous. So...
Jiani (40:04.046)
Mm.
Jiani (40:13.998)
Hmm.
Lorenz Sell (40:27.61)
I think it'll be interesting to see where it all goes.
Jiani (40:28.238)
Yeah, so whether to enhance connection or actually making the epidemic of loneliness more severe. So it's all really depends on awareness and the ability for us to navigate in that space. Beautiful.
Lorenz Sell (40:38.65)
Hmm.
Jiani (40:48.526)
And wonderful. So let's give our audience a quick recap of so far what we've talked about. And then we'll move into the magic part. So, so far we've talked about the story of Lawrence and how he pivoted or how he had this mystical, wonderful, peaceful experiences when he was doing the Burning Man experiences and feeling a deep sense of peace. And that kind of developed or opened up he...
opened him up for the new dimension going beyond software development to human, authentic human connections and experiences. And we explored the concept of the space is the teacher. So how do we actually foster or cultivate a safe space for authentic and deep embodied human connections, not only from the cognitive.
but from the emotion and from the physical to really connect with each other. And what does that mean to be vulnerable? How do we actually create a space where we embody each other's presence and making each other feel safe so we can continually collaborate and co -create a peaceful and interesting and hopeful and optimistic future in the next moment or next month or next year.
We also talked about the potential risks and challenges with virtual realities when we are dealing with avatars. Are we able to still foster a space with authentic connection? And it all depends on our awareness and how we navigate the water. So great conversation, Lawrence. And let's move to the magic part of the conversation. Our audience are probably very curious. So when you were 11 years old or
14 years old, which I already feel comfortable sharing. What did you enjoy doing so much that time just disappeared?
Lorenz Sell (42:53.21)
To be honest, I'm not sure because you gave me this question before and I thought about it, but I'll share a quick story about something I came across recently that was quite magical related to that time period of my life. So when I was in sixth grade, so I was just about 11 years old, maybe it was middle school, I don't know, sixth, seventh, eighth grade, something like that. So I was somewhere between 11 and 13.
I was in this advanced English course with five other students and our teacher at the end of the year collected all the short stories that we had written that year and put them into a really nice leather bound book, like for each one of us. So I have this leather bound book. It's like, you know, it's like, looks like a yearbook basically. And it says the complete and illustrated works of Lorenz Christian Selle.
And I just, I just came across this book last weekend. I was staying with my parents and it was on my mom's bookshelf and I noticed that I was like, oh cool. And so I opened it up and I read some of the stories and it was like mind blowing. I couldn't believe I had written those stories. They were so good. I couldn't believe that like a 12 year old boy had written these short stories. I mean, they were really, really.
you know, impressive. And that's been really interesting for me to revisit that. Like I consider myself a pretty good writer and I write a lot with my newsletter, but I, you know, a lot of my writing is more philosophical. It's less like I haven't written a piece of fiction since pretty much that period of time in my life. So it's interesting for me to revisit that and say, wow, I used to create these amazing stories.
that are like even now 30, it's literally been 30 years like are so like they are so impressive. So that's left us like, yeah, that's left this little question mark for me.
Jiani (44:55.63)
That's beautiful. I wonder what, you know, you're probably in your zone when you're writing those stories. Like, yes! And it comes pretty naturally. That's interesting. And as you were kind of going through your life,
Was there any particular major challenges that you have to overcome or to work with and that helped shape who you are as of now or send you on your mission to continuously develop sutra and help connect people?
Lorenz Sell (45:35.514)
I think that running a startup, I've been doing startups since 2003, is pretty much a continuous challenge. And maybe I don't like generalizations. I feel like everyone has their own experience. My particular journey with startups has been very, very challenging. And maybe one of the highlights of that.
was when I spent a year living in my car in San Francisco. This was also around 2011. I basically was in a situation where I had to really save money to continue working on my startup and I could either get a job or move into my car. And so I moved into my car and I spent 11 months living out of my car. And it was one of the most...
transformational experiences of my life. It profoundly changed me as a human being and kind of put me on a different path of awareness. It was also around that time that I started getting into yoga and meditation and kind of really changing the relationship that I had with myself. Like my mystical experience was right in the middle of that time period. So there was a lot that happened there, but...
Like I remember this moment I was living, I was in my car and it was late at night and it was raining outside and I had like Mozart playing on the radio and I was watching the raindrops falling down the windshield. And it was such a kind of a beautiful, calm, peaceful moment. And at the same time I was like, how am I ever going to get out of this situation? You know, and somehow, somehow, yeah, somehow I got out of that situation.
But that experience has always stayed with me as just one of those profoundly challenging moments that has been an enormous gift in retrospect.
Jiani (47:47.246)
That's beautiful, Lawrence. And actually for a moment of time, when you're sharing that moment, I'm like, I wanted to be there actually. Mozart and Rey on the car windshield and looking to the outside.
Lorenz Sell (47:58.042)
Hahaha.
Jiani (48:11.086)
And I can feel the dichotomy of, yes, it's so beautiful. But the reality hits because we live in a structured world and there are things we need to do. And sometimes like from, from that resonate with me, um, I started doing meditation when I was in the dark night of soul, um, searching, um,
And I, I always have this desire to.
Jiani (48:53.262)
I know as a human being we have responsibilities and we need to, you know, a lot of things we need to do, but from time to time would want to live in a monastery and just like be in the monastery. Do simple things like cleaning the floors and watch the leaves fly with the wind and...
and read something and meditate something and do work and have this like regular schedule and not have to worry or think about all these challenging things and just focus on the one thing that I find meaning in. And yeah, I still.
In that moment, the Mozart in the car and looking at the rain, that reminds me of... Sometimes from time to time, I wonder... I don't know, I probably should not share this...
Lorenz Sell (49:50.298)
Hehehehe
Lorenz Sell (50:01.498)
It's nice to prototype things like that, maybe just taking a week or a month to try something like that, to go live in a monastery or do a 30 -day silent retreat somewhere. I just feel like that can be such a gift.
Jiani (50:19.374)
Yeah, that's beautiful. Thank you, Lorenz, for sharing your stories on such a deep.
authentic and
Jiani (50:37.294)
graceful level. And as we conclude our conversation, what do you think is your magic?
Lorenz Sell (50:47.93)
Um...
Lorenz Sell (50:55.13)
I want to reframe that as kind of in a twofold way. So I think one of my, like, if you have to ask me, like, what's my superpower, I would say that it's receptivity. And this is something that I really consider this to be one of the highest virtues, like humility and receptivity. And I feel like they go very much hand in hand. In...
And I think that for me, one of the gifts of receptivity is...
Lorenz Sell (51:32.922)
knowing how to respond in a way that creates magic. I guess it also really depends on what magic is. But for me, maybe if I had to say, like magic in the most human level is just creating joy for other people, is being a source of happiness for other people, right? If you can create an experience or a moment for people that really opens up this deep experience of joy and happiness, that's magic. So one of my...
at Burning Man, you know, a big part of the culture is about creating magic for other people in one way or another, like gifting. And so one of my things there is I have a backpack that I carry with me all the time and I have all sorts of things in there from like jello cups to chapsticks to like Vicks vapor rub and like all sorts of different snacks and candies and whatever different drinks. Like I carry this thing to waste like a lot and I carried around me all the time and
what and all that stuff like isn't there so much for me, although I do enjoy it once in a while, is there for me to like insert little moments of magic into other people's experience. And so when I'm like in a space and I can be receptive to like, what does this person need right now? You know, and just like pop that in like, oh, here's the lollipop. Oh, here's a drink. Oh, here you look like you haven't eaten in 12 hours. Like here's a granola bar. Oh, you would like like a lychee cup, you know, and and and the key is of course like.
If you do that and someone doesn't want it, I mean, it's nice to be offered, but it can also be like a little bit annoying, right? The magic part is when something is offered to you at the perfect moment. That's this like, I was just chilling there watching the sunset when a guy comes by and gives me a lollipop and a beer or something like that, you know, whatever. I was like, like what just happened? And that's magic, right? And so I think if there was a...
Jiani (53:19.054)
Hahaha!
Lorenz Sell (53:27.482)
quality that I aspire to cultivate more of, not just at Burning Man, but in life. It would be this twofold capacity of, on one side, receptivity to the moment, to the situation, to the person I'm with. And that in itself is just like to be with a person and where this quality of presence is like, I feel you feeling me and we feel that and we're having this connection at this deeper level. That is already magic. But then also to be able to add...
little moments of wonder, because all this stuff can seem so serious sometimes, like, oh, let's get present and deal with everything. Right. And like, sometimes you just want to be like more playful and silly and not deal with all of that. But still, like to bring like the two together, like deep receptivity and then inserting like little like, like moments of surprise, playfulness, like whatever, right. Here's that lollipop and the beer for the sunset. Um, I think that's that to me, that, that, that probably comes closest to the quality of magic that.
that I feel like is something that I try to bring into the lives of the people around me.
Jiani (54:35.47)
A lollipop and a beer. A lollipop and an ice cream.
Lorenz Sell (54:39.45)
I mean maybe that'd be like sugar overload. There's something there. The exact combination depends on the situation, right? That's the receptivity part.
Jiani (54:46.19)
It's beautiful.
Jiani (54:53.934)
The timing, there's no, meet them where they are. Give them where they need, what they need at that moment. It's all about the music. That's beautiful. Thank you, Lawrence, for such a beautiful conversation today. And thank you for co -creating the space together with me and with our audience. I hope.
Lorenz Sell (54:57.946)
Right exactly exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah exactly Yeah, exactly
Jiani (55:23.79)
our audience are able to enjoy our conversation and wonder what kind of moments of needs or receptivity that they can provide for people that's next to them at this moment. So wonderful. Thank you.
Lorenz Sell (55:40.57)
Yeah, thank you, Johnny. A really wonderful conversation and beautiful to connect with you and really appreciate your presence.
Jiani (55:48.494)
Thank you very much for being you and curating the space through Sutra. So for our audience who want to get connected with Lorenz, his information and links are in the show note below. So I look forward to you connecting with him and experiencing his magic.
Lorenz Sell (56:10.522)
Thanks, Lajihani.
Jiani (56:13.966)
Thank you, Lauren.
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