Generative Leadership Beyond Command | Robert Dunham
📑 Chapters
00:00 - Introduction and Bob talking about himself
01:19 - Exploring Generative Leadership
08:50 - External vs internal action
11:18 - Conversations and reframing ourselves
14:22 - Opening ourselves to the possibilities
19:15 - Stories and examples from Bob’s career
24:22 - How to accept different perspectives
29:02 - Workers as “talents” instead of “employees”
37:00 - Impact of Generative Leadership
42:20 - The future of Generative Leadership for Bob
45:25 - The role of childlike wonder
48:42 - Bob at 11 years old
50:00 - Challenges that Bob had to overcome
52:45 - Bob’s magic
Watch the full episode here.
💕 Story Overview
On S5E10 of the @MAGICademy Podcast, we give a warm welcome to Robert Dunham! Bob is an expert in leadership development and founder of the Institute for Generative Leadership (IGL). We had an amazing conversation about generative leadership and what it truly means, how it generates positive things in our lives, and what motivates us and connects us as humans.
According to Bob, we’re in a constant state of generation, whether they may be positive or negative. In this episode, we discuss how to focus our efforts on generating good for ourselves and others, how to reframe our way of thinking and open up to new possibilities, how to foster confidence in ourselves and our teams, and much more.
Leaders don’t have to know everything. Generative leadership is a leadership approach suited for complex situations characterized by uncertainty and ambiguity, where traditional visionary leadership falls short (1). Instead of providing a singular vision, generative leaders focus on framing challenges as compelling purposes that motivate stakeholders to engage in self-initiated innovation. This approach involves hosting conversations that encourage self-organization and the prototyping of new ideas, fostering an environment where experimentation is valued and learning is continuous. Generative leaders track these initiatives, remove barriers, and scale up successful innovations, emphasizing a mindset that views organizations as social networks of meaning-making and embraces disruption as an opportunity for adaptation, contrasting with planned change approaches that rely on top-down implementation.
Generative leadership strategies: To effectively practice perspective-taking in leadership (2), leaders can engage with diverse narratives, such as case studies or personal accounts from team members, while actively suspending judgment and challenging their own biases. This involves critically reflecting on the experiences and viewpoints of others, and considering how their backgrounds, roles, and challenges shape their perspectives. (like reading a novel, we have a natural curiosity to know more about each character). Engaging in open discussions with each other, seeking out diverse real-life interactions within the community, and regularly reassessing everyone’s assumptions based on new insights are also essential. This approach helps leaders develop a deeper understanding of complex workplace dynamics, enhance empathy, and improve the ability to evaluate diverse viewpoints, ultimately fostering inclusivity, collaboration, and more effective decision-making.
Framework for holding space during generative change highlights three key components (3): Conceptual Alignment, Embodied Self-Scaffolding, and Contracting the 'What Ifs'. Conceptual Alignment ensures leaders understand and align their actions with the purpose of generative leadership, emphasizing open-ended exploration tied to meaningful organizational goals. Embodied Self-Scaffolding focuses on leaders managing their internal states by cultivating self-awareness, emotional regulation, and tolerance for ambiguity through practices like mindfulness and reflection. Contracting the "What Ifs" involves setting clear expectations and boundaries for generative conversations, and fostering psychological safety while encouraging authentic participation to empower everyone to collaborate, navigate complexity, and co-create innovative solutions.
⭐ What’s Bob’s Magic?
His ability to live in fascination and his recognition of gratitude as the most powerful emotion of them all.
Conclusion
In conclusion, effective leadership is rooted in the conscious practice of generative thinking and meaningful collaboration. As humans, we are constantly generating thoughts, actions, and interactions—both positive and negative. Generative leadership calls for self-discipline and intentionality in redirecting our energy toward productive and meaningful outcomes. Embracing diverse perspectives shaped by individual experiences will enable all talents as leaders to foster innovation. Every talent/leader brings unique insights to the table, and the exchange of ideas among each other creates opportunities for growth and creative problem-solving.
Equally important is the creation of a supportive “space” where open dialogue thrives. Leaders must address challenges proactively while ensuring team members feel valued and included. Building a workplace culture that encourages free expression, constructive feedback, and mutual respect is key to maintaining engagement. Every leader has a responsibility to involve each other, seek diverse input, and act on valuable ideas to foster a sense of belonging through genuine communication. Consequently, confidence, loyalty, and a shared commitment to success will be developed and sustained.
If you would like to stay tuned with our future guests and their magical stories. Welcome to join us.
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Harnessing Generative Leadership for Effective Team Dynamics
Importance of Having That Conversation.
Mastering Conversations is The Key to Effective Leadership
The Art of Decision-Making in Leadership
The Power of Commitment in Unlocking Team Success
The Role of Childlike Wonder in Generative Leadership
The Role of Honest Conversations in Transforming Workplace Culture
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Bushe, G. R. (2019). Generative leadership. Canadian Journal of Physician Leadership, 5(3), 141-147.
Southworth, J. (2022). Bridging critical thinking and transformative learning: The role of perspective-taking. Theory and Research in Education, 20(1), 44-63.
Choueiter, N., Bushe, G., & Belemlih, A. (2023). Preparing Leaders to Hold Space for Self and Others During Generative Change Events. Organization Development Review, 55(3).
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Bob Dunham is an expert in leadership development and founder of the Institute for Generative Leadership (IGL). Based in White Plains, New York, Bob has worked as an executive, consultant, educator, and coach since 1981. His career includes roles such as Vice President at Motorola Computer Systems and COO of Action Technologies.
Bob is the co-author of The Innovator’s Way: Essential Practices for Successful Innovation, published by MIT Press. He has developed several leadership programs, including the Generative Leadership Program (GLP) and the Coaching Excellence in Organizations (CEO) program with Newfield Network.
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Jiani (00:01.966)
Welcome to MAGICademy podcast. Today we have always asked the fund of generative leadership. And you may wonder, what is generative leadership? It's very interesting. Does that mean we generate leadership? Does that mean it's a leadership that being generated in the situation? So a lot, a lot of us will have a lot of questions. So welcome to our podcast to share your wisdoms with us today.
Bob Dunham (00:15.747)
Thanks.
Bob Dunham (00:30.453)
Thank you very much.
Jiani (00:32.11)
Thank you so much. So for those who are curious to learn about you, if you were to kind of give a unique introduction of yourself that nobody has heard about yet or read about yet, how would you introduce yourself?
Bob Dunham (00:50.707)
my goodness, I think I would introduce myself as a creature of fascination. And I'm fascinated with life. I'm fascinated with action. I'm fascinated with the challenges that we face as human beings. And that fascination happened to lead me on a path that now has been a body of work around leadership. But I'm just fascinated.
What kind of creatures are we human beings and what kind of creature are you and me? How do we create a future together?
Jiani (01:32.334)
Beautiful. It's very poetic too. And, and so then let's, let's talk about the generative leadership. So if you were like, okay, so what is, what is generative leadership and why generative leadership? Why would your curiosity and fascination of humanity lead you on that, on this path?
Bob Dunham (01:42.179)
Sure.
Bob Dunham (01:54.531)
Very good. You know, the word generative is really popular these days with generative AI. And generative, we are not using that term in the same way. Generative AI is basically just saying, well, we have AI can generate some human looking behaviors or interactions based on digesting masses of data. That's not what human beings do. So we're talking about...
Jiani (02:00.142)
Mmm, yes.
Bob Dunham (02:24.291)
the generative human intelligence, the generative human being. And what do we mean by generative? The way I would put it is that we all human beings, we're generating all the time. We're generating our body sensations, we're generating thoughts, we're generating actions, we're generating interactions, we're generating all the time. But if we look at ourselves, our humanity,
Sometimes we generate good stuff and sometimes we generate not so good. And we generate challenges, we generate fear, we generate doubt, we generate not knowing. And from that perspective, what if we became more conscious about what we're generating? What if we actually said, I want to be able to accomplish something.
different in the world. I want to contribute more. I want to produce more value. What if we said, I'd like to have more consciousness and choice about my emotions that are being generated, more consciousness and choice about my body and what's being generated. And so our use of generative, the way we mean it is that we are aware and are making conscious choices about not only what we do and what we produce,
but how we do it and how we experience it. So this takes us to the unification of our internal experience, connecting to our external action and viewing it from the point of view of what's meaningful. What's our choice in the matter? What's our choice about being human? And can we translate that into a discipline of action?
It's not only producing more meaning and value in the world, it's not only producing a better future, but it's part of a path of becoming a better human being, or a more effective or more functional human being. And what is it to become a better human being? It's to become more of yourself, rather than...
Bob Dunham (04:43.555)
all the stories of what you should do or should be or all your doubts from the past. So generative leadership is this internal external discipline that has taken certain questions very seriously. It uses what questions that are not the kind of questions we live with much in the Western culture. Most of the questions we have in the West, well, how do I do that?
Jiani (04:47.95)
Hmm.
Bob Dunham (05:12.739)
Tell me how to do that. And yeah, and we jump over the what question. Well, how do you do that with what? And so we have a background, a common sense, a cultural common sense that we know what a human being is so we don't need to ask the question of what is a human being. And you know what? I don't think we do know what a human being is very well in this culture. We...
Jiani (05:15.246)
Prescriptive very yeah
Bob Dunham (05:41.731)
decide that we know what action is. So let's just talk about how do we do action. No, I don't think we even know what action really is. And when we begin to ask these what questions, we begin to see, there are different answers than the common sense. And there are better answers than the common sense. There are more generative answers than the common sense. So if I package that all up, generative leadership is a discipline based on
Jiani (06:03.022)
Mmm.
Bob Dunham (06:12.291)
a generative understanding, which means that we are looking for interpretations of actions you can see and do and learn that actually produce results that without the new common sense, you wouldn't produce it. And so if I do one example, sometimes people live in stories about themselves in the world that that's just the way it is.
Jiani (06:14.766)
you
Bob Dunham (06:41.379)
can't do anything about that, right? Well, that's not a generative. Yeah. And, and, but that's not a very generative answer. It's a, it's a, it's a, it's an answer that shuts down choice. So what would the generative answer be? Well, what is the world? it's a story inside.
Jiani (06:43.758)
Yeah, we hear that saying a lot. Yeah, that's just the way it is.
Bob Dunham (07:02.083)
It's not what's out there, it's my story about what's out there. And that story can open possibilities or close them. So what kind of story of the world would you like to have? What kind of world would you like to create? Is an example of some of the disciplines of generative.
Jiani (07:21.358)
So it's very wealthy of kind of layers right there. I hear from this one, I see generative leadership as a way for us to have this beginner's mindset and always make conscious decisions from the big picture perspective at that moment and whatever is on our hand we need to deal with. It's like...
Bob Dunham (07:27.651)
yeah.
Jiani (07:49.102)
We need to think in terms of the meta level of question, like why, how, before we think about what. And I also hear...
Generative leadership is evidence -based because it's generating outcome. Because whether we decide what to do or when, how, to what degree, with whom, what time, for how long, we need evidence to help us to kind of fine -tune those details. I also see...
Bob Dunham (08:03.011)
Yeah, absolutely.
Jiani (08:25.358)
by the way of your explanation of generative leadership as a way to.
be
imaginative, like optimistically imaginative co -creation, almost be conscious of what sort of environment or culture or communication.
that we wanted to create and backward design and make decisions at this current moment. So it's a lot of, I can hear like a lot of things wrapped in this whole concept of generative leadership.
Bob Dunham (09:08.611)
Yeah, it's...
Jiani (09:08.654)
I also hear something like it's not even hierarchical. It's actually coming from everyone. It's very inclusive and everyone can practice this generative leadership at different levels, with different, understandings of, of, of what's going on and evidence that we have at hand. So yeah, it is a very multi -layered concept.
Bob Dunham (09:16.963)
yeah.
Bob Dunham (09:37.187)
Yeah, well said. Well said. One of the key discoveries on the way of its evolution was noticing that the common sense about action in our culture is about external action.
and we left out the internal experience of the people involved. And so by connecting that back up again, action's also internal that then begins to reshape what we do externally. And if you look at that, one perspective is that when we only talk about external action and we have to organize ourselves to be a good production machine for that external action,
It actually is mechanical. We've made ourselves and other people mechanical. We've left out them. And so we put that human being back in the domain of action and reinterpret action from there. We actually do reframing because the common sense hides possibilities from us.
Jiani (10:47.534)
Be friendly.
Bob Dunham (10:52.899)
We're living in a world of hidden possibilities that our current common sense says, well, that's not possible, or that doesn't exist, or I'm too busy, or whatever the reality is. And one of our earliest learnings in this path was that if we see action as activity, then what we see is people doing a lot of activity. It doesn't necessarily mean it's highly valuable. It doesn't mean it's...
It doesn't mean it's meaningful, it doesn't mean it's satisfying, but it's activity. You see, we're already sounding like people don't matter, rather than what's meaningful.
Jiani (11:34.19)
the product coming out of them.
Bob Dunham (11:36.867)
Exactly, exactly. And so one of our reframings that we've drawn on many, many thinkers, one of our framings is the interpretation that action is always determined by commitment.
And when I first heard that, that was new for me. I thought action was doing right. And when they said, no, action actually is commitment. You have to have an act of commitment before you do anything. Even if it's automatic. So what's lovely about that is commitment is part of that internal world that we are. And if our commitment is what generates action, it is an act that generates all the
behaviors that follow, then we have a great question. What are you committed to?
What do you want to commit to? And now we're beginning to be in the practices, the skills of generative leadership is to begin to have those questions. And where does commitment come from? Conversations. my God, I thought conversations were just a waste of time. Let's get busy. But it turns out that all action is defined by prior conversation.
Jiani (13:03.182)
Tell us more about this reframing. I feel like the conversation and the reframing kind of go together. Like a lot of times when we are not committed and not doing because there's something, some sort of disconnection happening or some sort of framing is not aligned with bigger framing that's coming or shaping.
How do we, through conversations, help people to reframe and commit?
Bob Dunham (13:38.979)
Well, there's a part of conversations that do that, those we would call generative conversations. So if I wanted to reframe the future with you, I could say something as simple, let's meet for lunch tomorrow.
I just created a piece of the future that didn't exist before I said it.
And that's just a real basic, simple example. We're doing it already, but we're not aware of this amazing thing we're doing of creating the future, of creating possibilities. And so when we look at conversations, part of our background is the dimension of language. And there's a part of language that we would call generative. It's generating commitment.
and every commitment changes the future. There's a taxonomy. If I make a request, I've changed the future, whether you say yes or no.
If I make a promise? Exactly. If I make a promise, if I've made the commitment of a promise, I have changed the future. I have changed what I'm going to do.
Jiani (14:41.166)
least there's a possibility.
Bob Dunham (14:53.347)
If I have an opinion, that changes the future too. That's good, that's bad. I like it, I don't like it. We're changing the future and the world all the time in our language. And so the generative tradition is saying, let's become aware of that. Let's become aware of these aspects of what has us generate and gives us choice in generating in our language, but also in our experience with our bodies.
in our emotions, how do we make those domains of learning and choice rather than just things that happen to us? And so you're beginning to see the generative part is to say, how do we become aware? And awareness itself is a big deal because if we're not aware of something, we have no choice. How can you have a choice about something you're not aware of? Right?
Jiani (15:49.166)
Exactly because you're like what? You just go with the flow and you're not even aware. Yeah awareness is indeed.
Bob Dunham (15:59.075)
And so one of the principles is awareness creates choice. So we're always looking for, could I be aware of a new perspective? Could I be aware of how things look through your eyes? Because that awareness would change the possibilities. If I only see the world through my eyes, then I've got a pretty limited world.
Jiani (16:22.222)
See that's a challenging part or maybe at least we make it challenging because sometimes each one have their own lived experiences and that experiences help to frame the schema of thought that they have expectations and hope and happiness and expectation. How would we...
Bob Dunham (16:33.507)
yeah.
Jiani (16:49.934)
kind of open up our perceptions or reframe possibilities if that requires a different set of life experiences or just, I don't know, experiences to help them.
Bob Dunham (17:08.291)
Yeah, you're opening possibilities right now with your question. And see, when we're trying to bring this way of looking, we call it being an observer, a particular kind of observer. People see the world through the eyes they have, through their experiences. We call that being an observer. In domains of action,
Jiani (17:13.038)
I'm going to go to bed.
Bob Dunham (17:37.699)
People have different skills of observing. So a physician sees bodies differently than I do. I haven't been trained in the language of medicine or the experiences of medicine. An architect would see this room I'm sitting in differently than I do because they actually have different distinctions to see with. Leadership we found is the same. There are distinctions that leaders are aware of and need to be aware of.
if they're going to be effective in their skills. So when we look at our world that we share with other people, when we look at from the point of view of what is a human being, what do we see? We have experiences or fundamental aspects of our experiences that we all share, like we have experience. Everybody, that we can agree on. And then,
Jiani (18:31.63)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Bob Dunham (18:35.203)
There's also the uniqueness of it for every individual. Your experience is different than mine. So because I know that I have experience and you have experience and yours is different from mine, we can have a conversation about it.
I could ask you about your experience. I could inquire. I could begin to get a sense of things. And when we do that, we do something that's very powerful that in our terminology we call, we create a we space. We go from a you and me to a we. And we create a we space all the time when we...
Jiani (19:11.886)
Peace.
Bob Dunham (19:19.971)
create the possibility of a shared future. So when I invited you to lunch, that was opening up a possible WeSleep. Yeah. And so as leaders, as participants in teams or organizations or friendships or relationships, we've learned this is a big deal to be able to...
Jiani (19:25.526)
A wee space.
Bob Dunham (19:48.899)
have a sense about what's the we space, how healthy is it, and what can we do to enhance it and to manage it in a healthy way together.
Jiani (19:57.998)
Mm.
Jiani (20:01.71)
And how, yeah, and then.
I find myself have to ask this question, but I think that's more of like what then I'm kind of moving toward more of a what or how would there steps that leaders.
Bob Dunham (20:08.995)
Go ahead.
Jiani (20:25.07)
can take to start invite people into transcend from like a me or you space into a we space to pave the ground for the reframing to happen like with their yeah how
Bob Dunham (20:41.699)
Absolutely. Absolutely. We, you know, we do it, we do it in certain ways already, but this is what we found is that these are the concerns of a leader. We have a group of people or some community or some set of relationships. We could call it a team, could call it a family. And we're in this context that we either share the future,
or we want to share the future.
And if we're going to share the future, it's probably a good idea to have a conversation about, well, what future are we sharing? What future do we want to share? What future do we not want to share? How do we do this? And that's part of the leadership skill is how do we have those conversations? And conversations are not simply a bunch of words. They're a full body experience. You ever had someone...
you're talking to and you can just feel like, hello, are you there? Yeah.
Jiani (21:48.11)
Yeah, you can definitely tell when people start to zoom out. We just know.
Bob Dunham (21:54.211)
I don't think you're going to have a good experience sharing the future with someone who doesn't know how to be present, doesn't know how to connect. So if we're going to be skillful in leadership or even just coordination or relationship, we've learned, well, this is part of the aspects we all share is do we know how to connect? Do we know how to listen? Do we know how to have a voice? Do we know how to have room for...
doubt, emotions, reactions, because you're going to have, that's all part of it, right? And so if we're not skillful in this we space domain, we make up stories of why there's a problem and who's the problem, rather than say, that's a missing conversation.
Jiani (22:41.838)
Mm.
Bob Dunham (22:49.923)
That's a missing shift in perspective or a missing shift in commitment or a missing shift in awareness that we could begin to open up as a possibility. Even if I'm seeing it in myself, well, I don't get it. I'm not sure what you mean by that. It can be a very positive move in a conversation because I want to feel like we're creating something shared that I can play my part in.
Jiani (23:19.982)
Were there any particular examples that like organizations that you worked with or leadership trainings that you helped develop? Can you share with us some specific examples where, assuming, I'm just kind of assuming like people were, there's a big disconnect among the teams and then something that they did or follow the guidance on.
Like with the genitive leadership, they're able to.
bridge that disconnection and going into this we space, people are present, people feel psychologically safe and conversations are being directed toward reframing and reframing goes to the commitment which goes to the action.
Bob Dunham (24:09.155)
Beautiful, yeah, beautiful. I think that's a fairly common challenge in the organizational world, particularly at the beginning.
Jiani (24:17.134)
It is. Especially when there's a lot of uncertainty because people want to be right and...
Bob Dunham (24:26.115)
that too. Yeah, very, very human. So one of the first conversations is to create a space for conversation. Let's talk about, are we willing to have a conversation? Are we willing to listen to each other? We have opinions. We may have agreements or disagreements, but we're never going to get anywhere unless we can talk about it and figure out how to go forward together. Are you willing to have that conversation? And.
Jiani (24:29.55)
Yeah.
Bob Dunham (24:53.603)
when people are willing to enter the conversation and they may show up with a point of view you don't agree with or even a behavior that you find triggering. Part of being able to open up that we space is to stay present, to stay open. Your body is actually communicating even if you're not talking. Creates a space like I'm listening, I'm here. And...
instead of having reactions to what the other person's saying, be open that that's their point of view. That's what they have to say. And then begin to inquire, well, what are the challenges that you see? What are the issues you have? What are the possibilities you want to end? We often have to talk about what are our roles in this conversation?
Jiani (25:47.118)
What a role for me.
Bob Dunham (25:47.363)
The role that we have, friends, that's a different set of roles to have a conversation and then a boss with a team member, for example, that is a relationship. And authority tends to produce all kinds of concerns for people of what am I going to be subject to? Safety can be an issue, for example, in those situations more commonly.
Jiani (26:08.942)
Yeah.
Jiani (26:17.646)
So how do we, but sometimes it's unavoidable. Like if, you know, a supervisor or someone, you know, they're talking with each other, there's like stake could be high and psychological safety could be kind of hard to kind of cultivate. So in that sort of situation, how would generative leadership help in that like tough, I would say like high sensitive.
Bob Dunham (26:17.731)
And so, yeah.
Jiani (26:47.086)
high -stake situations.
Bob Dunham (26:47.139)
Sure. Well, when the pressure is on, a common reaction is tension.
Jiani (26:55.15)
Yes.
Bob Dunham (26:56.387)
The most common reaction is fear and contraction and worry and sensitivity and reaction. And the way we manage that is sometimes we react, sometimes we just pull back and we go to this fight or flight kind of response. And the leader's job is to first of all show up with their presence.
The pressure's on, but we don't need to be acting stressed out about it because we're going to have to actually think together. We're going to actually take a look at the situation. So can we just breathe, come present, be, and we're going to make it open so you can get heard. And we may wind up having different points of view, but to begin the conversation,
everybody will be listened to respectfully. It's not about agreement or not. It's about everybody having their voice heard. And then in the team situation, for example, or family, out of that, different points of view, we can talk about, well, what do you think we should do? And one of the common patterns in our culture,
Jiani (28:12.366)
Hmm.
Bob Dunham (28:19.587)
is when there's a disagreement, it often turns into a contest of who's going to win.
And if we zoom out, there's no right answer when you're dealing with opinions. They're just opinions. And opinions can have better or less better consequences in choices and actions. And so there's a whole nother reframing there that a disagreement can be an opening to a very rich design conversation. Instead of a contest of who's going to win and who's going to lose,
Jiani (28:51.438)
Mmm.
Bob Dunham (28:55.011)
It can be, let me hear about your point of view. Let me share mine. Is there anything from these two points of view that we could put together that would even have a better result for this concern we're trying to deal with than simply choosing A or B? I found in when I first began to work with this in the workplace, I was working with product development, and there's disagreements all the time. And when I found that it was an opening to a design,
possibility that we wanted the points of view to be looked at and people would relax and get out of the who's going to win mode, that about 80 % of the time we wound up creating something that was different than either opinion that we started with. And that's part of learning that possibility of what conversations can be rather than kind of the automatic habits that we tend to fall into.
Jiani (29:56.11)
That seems, I mean, that will be ideal. And how do we notch them out of that? Like, maybe it's a human nature thing. Like people wanted to like, to like, we said, like want to be right. And there's like, sort of like a competition, even though we want, you know, we may be consciously aware of it or not. How do we notch, notch people to, especially leaders actually?
Bob Dunham (30:17.379)
out here.
Jiani (30:25.486)
to kind of be like be open, like invite different opinions and just be a facilitator rather than like people who give orders. Like how do, how do we do that?
Bob Dunham (30:41.859)
Well, you just made a very strong recommendation for what a leader should learn. You should learn how to create a space in which people are listened to. You're not just giving orders because that produces certain negative consequences and that's not good leadership. In most cases, unless there's a crisis going on and we don't have time for the right conversation. Other than that, that's not giving orders is not very effective.
If there's not a crisis, rather than giving orders, the only thing that we found you can do that's authentic is make requests.
Jiani (31:21.614)
Make requests.
Bob Dunham (31:23.203)
and people are going to give and you encourage people to give their honest answer because one of the mistaken contexts for leadership is I have power, I have authority and my job is to get you to do what I want or my job is to get you to say yes. That as a leadership practice, it's a disaster because what you will wind up with is a culture where people say yes and
Jiani (31:39.694)
That's a common expectation.
Bob Dunham (31:52.835)
They're not committed. And you never know what people are really committed to because you haven't created the space for the honest conversation around it. So when I first started working with this, I was in a company where the culture was whenever someone was asked to do anything, the answer was always yes. And the result was a disaster because there were more things that were said yes to than could be done.
And so the second wave of that culture was excuses and blame and resignation. And those are hallmarks of a culture in which honest conversation about what can be done, what you're committed to or not committed to hasn't been cultivated. And when I saw that culture and learned that
What I want as a customer, what I want as a team leader, what I want as a colleague when I'm proposing or asking for someone else to do something, I want to know what they're really committed to. Yes or no, or maybe or not, just let's get honest. And we could interact around that, but in the end, you can only get what people are really committed to. Now,
Jiani (33:14.574)
Mm.
Bob Dunham (33:23.011)
When I say that, people say, well, then someone could just say no to everything and you'd never get anything done. Well, that's also handled in setting up the context because the only reason someone's a member of the team is they've already made a promise or they wouldn't be on the team.
Their role is a promise. So yes, they can say no, but it has to be consistent with the promise that they're already holding. And so that's part of the guardrails or boundaries that help things have a shape. It's not just pure ego and whether I like it or not. The territory of the WeSpace for creating
Jiani (33:59.694)
Mm.
Bob Dunham (34:13.987)
the coordination of action in a shared future is agreements. And the most rigorous form of those agreements are promises. So roles are defined by their promises, not by their titles, not by their expertise. And when you begin to look from this point of view, the conversation gets very clear.
Jiani (34:35.198)
So the roles are based on their commitment, not titles or positions. It's the committed actions that they will take.
Bob Dunham (34:40.291)
Exactly.
Bob Dunham (34:45.699)
Exactly. Exactly. If you know, I, when I first started to work with this and I looked at job descriptions, I said, these job descriptions are crazy. They're worthless. They're, you do these skills and you do these things. When I saw that in my organization, I'm, it's really nice. You have skills and it's really nice. You can do things, but I'm interested in the promises you're going to make. I'm interested in the promises you.
me. And so I began to define people's roles. This is your responsibility. This is the commitment of this role. And you can be competent or not, or you can be committed or not, but the role is defined by the promise. That's the job description. Now, is it a good fit for you? Is it a job that you can succeed at? Is it a job you can grow into? Is it a promise that you're interested in for your career?
Jiani (35:37.486)
Thank you.
Bob Dunham (35:45.987)
it opened up a lot of positive other conversations to help people succeed and see their job as a step forward in their lives.
Jiani (35:57.838)
Yeah, and another thing that I've observed, maybe it's like an off topic thing, but I feel like I wanted to ask you is that a lot of times when India with a Nation, we always see...
people who have the skills and who have the commitment as like simple like employees. Like when we use the term like employee, it feels like it's coming from a very hierarchical structure.
versus I've observed that people start to call them rather than employees more like a talent. Like these are people that we, we, the organizations decide to hire and embrace and, and give them space to put forth their commitment. What is kind of what, yeah, what's, what's your take on that? I just wanted to ask.
Bob Dunham (36:38.467)
I love -
Bob Dunham (36:53.027)
Well, you're talking about an older style of language with employee and that context comes from an era where we had departments called human resources. And that's actually part of the mechanizing of how we think about action. people are resources. Let's see if we can.
use them like the machines in the factory to get output. And it puts us in the wrong frame because these are human beings that can, they can create, they can commit, they can grow. And they also have concerns that motivates them. And so that begins to show the tendency of the logic.
of action sometimes goes into a direction that makes people into machines or units of production. And that works kinda at a certain low level. The Gallup people have been doing surveys for many, many years about employee engagement. And they've found with their surveys that engaged employees,
produce significantly better business results, measurable business results. Disengaged employees don't. And it turns out, if you look at their survey, the difference between an engaged employee and a disengaged employee is the conversations they're involved in. And in generative leadership, the fundamental skill, the fundamental responsibility of a leadership role is conversations.
because all action is defined, all results come from prior conversations. So that's the domain of skill of the leader. And in the latest Gallup survey, they surveyed in the United States that 69 % of employees were disengaged with the consequences to the business. And why was that? Because they weren't being involved in.
Bob Dunham (39:24.739)
conversations that you would want to have as a human being. And so this is just, this is not complicated, but it is a shift. It is a shift in our awareness, in our cultural standards. But there are some companies that are really, really excellent compared to others because they have better conversations. It always starts there.
Jiani (39:29.134)
Hmm.
Jiani (39:56.206)
Was there, so we talked about kind of a few steps to have that conversation. First is to create invitation, create a request to start the space and then curate a sense of we space and transcend from you and me to a we space and.
and presents. So having an open minded presence, especially from the leader to invite people to share their perspectives, suggestions, even feelings and ideas. And then having
And then kind of no judgment, but kind of co -create. I see arts, like I see kind of like an art way of doing and to have like a co -creation and invite co -creation. And then as the co -creation are being facilitated.
invite them to commit and maybe ask them like a post -check you mentioned about like yes, no, maybe. So at least they have the agency to say, yeah, I think it's a maybe or I think it's a no unless. And then once they commit, then the action or just or productivity, whatever we call it, are just the kind of the byproduct of that commitment.
Did that describe kind of the process of generative leadership conversation?
Bob Dunham (41:51.491)
There's a lot of what you said I think that resonates with what we've learned over the decades we've been doing this. And this co -creation is a process of people having a voice, of offering perspectives, which are almost always opinions. Sometimes the arguments involve measures and there's facts as well. And...
So there's different kinds of conversations that we learn to have. One is called speculation. Speculation is not a negotiation for what we're gonna do. It's like, what do you see is possible? Let's have that conversation, right? That's one of the conversations we can have. And as we're looking at all those possibilities, then there's another phase of the conversation called, well, which one of these look like we could actually take on?
Jiani (42:33.294)
Mmm.
Bob Dunham (42:50.467)
whatever frame that we're, you know, a frame of time or a frame of money or relevance, which are the best ideas. And this is a chance where everybody has to have a voice to add what their eyes see, that's their contribution, that's what teams are about, is to have different points of view contribute. And then there's a point in the conversation, well, we're gonna have to make a decision at some point.
of what the team's gonna do and not gonna do. And there's a way to structure that conversation. But one of the reasons that there's a team leader role is teams don't always converge.
and they don't always thrash it out and come up with the same approaches. And when that happens, there needs to be some kind of resolution process. And that's the responsibility of the team leader is to facilitate the conversation, try to resolve and integrate the points of view in this co -design conversation you're talking about. And if there's a disagreement to have,
you know, arguments for pro and con, but someone needs to make a call or there isn't one. And that's one of the responsibilities of a leadership role. When that's done well, people respect it because they've had a chance to be heard. They think the arguments and the logic make sense. But a team that
Jiani (44:28.846)
Hmm.
Bob Dunham (44:33.731)
can't accept a decision takes us to another challenging situation, which is you're not really a team. And if you can't align around a decision, you can certainly have a voice in the decision process. You can have a voice in how the process works. But there needs to be a decision at some point. And if you can...
If you can commit to the decision, if the process has gone well, even though it's not your preference, that's being a team member. And if you can't, if you'll only hold out for your own point of view, you're really not a good team member. And then that's another conversation we need to have. What constitutes being a team member? I use sports situations. What if a team who's running from a playbook,
And one of the players said, no, I'm not going to do my part in that play, even though it's the play the team's going to run. They're not a good team member. So the opportunity is, well, let's call a timeout and talk about it, or let's talk about it at halftime, or we have a week between games. Let's talk about the playbook. There's times to have certain conversations, and that's part of learning.
the conversational skills to help create a WeSpace in which people show up with disagreements and they still have to be dealt with.
Jiani (46:03.534)
Hmm.
Jiani (46:12.27)
Hmm. We're coming back. We're anchoring back to the conversation space, the we space. I like that. Yes. And were there to measure the impact of this approach were what, what kind of measure do we use to measure the impact? Do we measure in terms of, I know productivity is not what we, you know, it's ideally it's not seeing people as people.
Bob Dunham (46:18.527)
Yeah, yeah.
Jiani (46:38.35)
However, it's easy to measure. Were there any specific metrics that you used to help kind of measure the impact of generative leadership when done well?
Bob Dunham (46:49.411)
Yeah, so there's different classes and levels of measurement and what we would call assertions, not just opinions, but facts. And one of the classes of facts is are the generative conversations happening? So if there's action that we're expecting a result from, has it been agreed to? You can measure that.
Has a request been made? You can measure that. Has a promise been made? You can measure that. What's the condition of satisfaction? A term we have for the outcome. You can document it. Is it measurable? You can measure that. Has the action of the team or the performer in the individual case fulfilled the promise? You can measure that.
Has the customer declared satisfaction? You can measure that. Has there been problems along the way and were they reported? Were they brought up? You can measure that. Were they resolved? You can measure that and so on. So the whole domain of coordination itself has specific acts just like DNA has four basic chemical components and DNA comes together in very
Jiani (48:01.87)
Mmm.
Bob Dunham (48:16.515)
complicated helixes and produces everything that's living. It's amazing, right? Exactly. There's something very simple that can create this infinite world of possibility. Conversations are the same. There's six basic speech acts. There's the dimensions of listening that include emotions, body language, conversations. They...
Jiani (48:20.206)
Yes, so diverse, just four, yes.
Bob Dunham (48:47.011)
inform practices so you have all these places that you can look. And because there's structure, you can measure whether it's happening or not. And then you can also say in the categories of the outcomes, what are our concerns? Business concerns tend to be a very limited amount. Cost, financial consequence, quality, time, customer satisfaction.
If you're doing well on all of those and they all have places that you could declare measurable standards, you're probably creating good business processes, for example. And what we want to do is also create them through conversation into meaningful promises that are held by people as part of the game, we're not just mechanizing the people. So.
Jiani (49:45.71)
So I.
Bob Dunham (49:45.859)
Yes, it's a measurable domain.
Jiani (49:49.102)
I love that. It's almost like in my mind, I always see people say like NPS scores, but I'm like, not total numbers of meaningful commitment in this organization. And then the number can, you can see it grow and it's motivational. And you see that it's like, more, more commitments. It's happening.
Bob Dunham (49:58.403)
Yeah.
Bob Dunham (50:08.931)
Yeah, yeah, and we've learned that there are certain practices, one of them we call the managing action practice, which is really managing the future of practice, is what are my commitments and where am I with them? People have kind of been trained to do fairly diminished ways of understanding what they're doing and where they're going and whether it's happening or not. They check off to -do lists.
They check off checklists. They do progress reports. They even have planning document, you know, you admire on plan. But from the leadership point of view, those are inadequate. You need to ask a different question, which is what is the promise and are we going to fulfill it? Because checking off everything on my to do list doesn't mean I'm going to fulfill the promise. I have to be looking in a wider sense because maybe my to do list is incomplete. Maybe it had the wrong things on it. And so it.
Jiani (50:38.926)
Yes.
Bob Dunham (51:08.547)
It gives you a different perspective to say, yes, I'm busy. Yes, I have plans. Yes, I have a two of us, but I need to look from another point of view, which is what is the promise and all is all of this adding up to confidence that that promise is going to happen or not. And it's a, it's a self coaching, self leadership, as well as leading other people practice. That's been very, very powerful because it brings our full human capacity to look at the big picture.
and have an intuition or a sense as well as checking off boxes.
Jiani (51:44.558)
seeing each person as a whole person and invite them to make promises and carry it through and let the promise be the compass guiding their decisions and actions moving forward until they have a new promise then...
Bob Dunham (52:00.483)
Beautiful.
Bob Dunham (52:05.731)
Yeah. And remember that. Yeah. And the context is we negotiate promises that we trust. So this is not a way to burden yourself and overcommit. That's just bad practice. As a leader, I learned I don't want people to say yes. I want them to make a promise I can trust. So I often had people say yes to my requests and I'd say, are you sure?
Jiani (52:36.302)
What's your confidence level?
Bob Dunham (52:41.571)
Exactly. And I would say, look, if this is too extreme of a request, tell me that. Tell me no. I want to know we're doing something that we can both really be confident in. I'm not trying to get you to say yes, which was that old culture that we're trying to get out of.
Jiani (53:03.566)
Beautiful. And as we look into the future and with all the advanced technology development, Gen. AI, extended realities and Web3 and brand machine interactions, how do you foresee the best future for generative leadership or what role can it play into the future?
Bob Dunham (53:32.547)
Well, I think generative leadership, as I've been hopefully demonstrating in this conversation and sharing, is really a strong thrust at a couple of very important questions. What is a human being? What is action?
How do we do action together? And how do we do that to create a better future? How can we create a world in which everyone thrives rather than a few people benefit on the backs of others? And so when we look at that and we look at the world of action, we want to have people come together based on...
some very important internal aspects of being human, which is what do we care about? Whenever we're in action with things we don't care about, we've sacrificed a part of our aliveness. And so even, and the care isn't determined by the activity or what's out there, it's determined by the relationship we create with it. And I once had a chat with the head of
a union of janitors in Spain, he had 30 ,000 members of his union. And he said, we're professionals. We take care of our customers and we have dignity because we have created a conversation about the meaning of our work. It's not determined by the job, it's determined by our relationship with it. And so,
That's never going to go away. And generative AI, for example, everybody's, I think it is a concern because when you're being spoken to, are you being spoken to by a being that can bring commitment and care in the interaction or is this simply a mechanized routine that's going on? I think we're going to have to learn how to be sensitive to that. But,
Jiani (55:48.814)
Mm.
Bob Dunham (55:51.779)
Only human beings can care the way human beings care. Only human beings can take care of each other the way human beings take care of each other. And that's never going to go away. This is not about better information processing or smarter information processing. It's about the kind of human beings we are, the kind of life we create together and the kind of world we envisage and are bringing to reality. And...
That's always going to be rooted in our human capacities and our human challenges. And that's why generative leadership is trying to be an important perspective on that as a contribution to how do we do that better, both individually and together. And it's never going to go away. It's the issues of life, the issue of having a shared future and creating that future.
Jiani (56:41.934)
Hmm.
Bob Dunham (56:51.555)
together.
Jiani (56:51.978)
co -creating the future through generative leadership. And that gets me ask the other question, like, what role do you think childlike wonder play? I know when we were kids, like, we're just like, you know, childlike, it's just our nature. And as we go through the adulting process, that just kind of...
you know, we feel that less and less. What role does that play in the context of generative leadership and the co -creative future that we are stepping into?
Bob Dunham (57:22.499)
Yeah.
Bob Dunham (57:31.715)
Well, I need to say that generative leadership is just not about leadership, it's about life. And one of the principles of generative leadership is it's for the sake of living a good life. If leadership's not about that, what is it about? Right? And so this role of wonder has to do with our relationship with possibility.
Jiani (57:49.434)
Yeah!
Bob Dunham (58:01.539)
It has to do with our relationship with curiosity. It has to do with our relationship with appreciation and delight. And there's no reason we should lose it because we get older. And it's a cultural drift that somehow the big questions have been answered and there's no more possibility. So we just have to slog through life and try to survive it.
But that's not the way reality works when you look at it from the generative point of view. There's always infinite possibilities. Exactly. And so wonder, you know, in Western philosophy, it began, it's credited with the ancient Greeks, and it began with their sense of wonder. They had a question. They say, why does this exist?
Jiani (58:36.686)
always reality is always generative
Bob Dunham (59:01.059)
Why does reality exist the way it does? It's wild. How did that happen? And so I think that's an opportunity for us to include in our lives. And another version of the wonder that I think is, you know, a core of meaning and value and satisfaction in life is,
Jiani (59:06.762)
you
Bob Dunham (59:30.083)
The mood of fascination. We should find ourselves fascinating. Why am I this kind of human being? Why are you that's fascinating? Why do we do this? What's possible if we could? It's fascinating. And go ahead.
Jiani (59:48.238)
find each other fascinating and that can go back to the leadership. The leaders find the... And I think leaders and followers, they kind of, they play different roles. So sometimes they find each other fascinating. And I think when we're able to find each other fascinating, that just opens up all sort of...
opportunities for the co -creation to take place through generative leadership.
Bob Dunham (01:00:19.011)
I'm with you. I think we're fascinating. I think life is fascinating. I think action is fascinating. Yeah.
Jiani (01:00:23.886)
Life is fascinating. Leadership is fascinating and being able to follow a leader is fascinating and being able to explore all possibilities and you know a way you know a future could look like is fascinating and being able to make a commitment and do that thing and be confident about it is fascinating and
Bob Dunham (01:00:29.795)
Yeah, it is.
Jiani (01:00:50.254)
be open to disagreement which brings you to more views is fascinating. It's fascinating.
Bob Dunham (01:00:56.771)
Exactly, exactly. That's available. It's not because it is fascinating, it's because we're bringing that perspective that makes it fascinating.
Jiani (01:01:10.286)
I love that. And that just makes everybody's life just so much more enjoyable. I fascinate. Why you get upset? it's so fascinating.
Bob Dunham (01:01:21.283)
Exactly. Exactly.
Jiani (01:01:24.238)
That's amazing. So as we move into the magic piece, I would like to give our audience a quick recap. So we've talked about Bob's stories of why generative leadership, what is generative leadership and why conversation plays such a big and critical role in facilitating and implementing generative leadership. We also talk about...
different steps that we can take to help people transcend beyond the I versus you space into a we space where we co -create a future that we would both like to commit and we also feel confident to commit. And we also.
think about this possibility of instead of you know productivity measure we can still keep that but in addition to that we can say you know commitment measure there are x number of meaningful commitment coming from our talent in this organization and serve as like a big like motivator for for people and seeing people as human beings rather than a production
thing. And we also talk about different ways we can measure the impact of generative leadership. And we kind of looked into the future of what, you know, the technologies can play a role. And how should generative leadership be, still be that meta level and be able to think why, when, how, if, should we and to whom, how much.
to what degree, for how long, you can keep on going there. And we also, we ended our conversation into this note about childlike wonder and how childlike wonder is able to help us feel fascinated about everything that's happening and bring this fascination to both leaders and followers and followers and leaders. And even when disagreement is happening, just bring that fascination into the conversation and that will keep.
Jiani (01:03:34.126)
conversation going toward the generative future that we wanted to create. So such a wonderful conversation. And as we move into the magic piece, so I'm curious, what did you enjoy doing when you were 11 years old, that time just disappeared?
Bob Dunham (01:03:38.307)
Beautiful.
Bob Dunham (01:03:52.995)
I would say I was into sports a lot. I enjoyed being in my body and moving and learning and being able to do cool stuff, play with other people. And I was really into reading. I just found books fascinating. I'm lucky because I know many people have.
dyslexia and issues that have interfered with that and there's no media.
Jiani (01:04:25.518)
I have a little bit, I think I have some, I have some dis, undiagnosed, some level
Bob Dunham (01:04:32.131)
there you go. Yeah, so I'm really lucky. I found reading easy and it just opened up the world. And I know there's a lot of media and really wonderful media available now, but a good book is just really a treasure to me because somebody put a lot of time and thought and research and experience to put together something in a very tight way. And I really appreciate that. So.
I think what was enthralling for me was learning, full body learning.
becoming this new explorer of possibilities in the world, that's kind of the thread that's still cooking in my life.
Jiani (01:05:24.526)
Still cooking. Yes. Generative co -creating. Yeah. I love that. It's fascinating. And I think we are, I was reading this book called Extended Mind. It's talking about how we learn not only through our mind, but also through our body. So I think you're in, you're living in that like...
Bob Dunham (01:05:28.291)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Bob Dunham (01:05:42.691)
Yes.
Jiani (01:05:48.686)
multi -sensory way of learning even you know it's coming from sports it's coming from the the words the texts the books that's beautiful and were there any particular challenges that you have to go through that helped to build or create you as you now?
Bob Dunham (01:05:52.739)
Exactly.
Bob Dunham (01:05:57.315)
Yep. Yep.
Bob Dunham (01:06:12.995)
my God, if you know, I could probably make a few more hours of a long list of those challenges. But I think, I think the, if I look, if I look at them, the experience I had with challenges is,
Jiani (01:06:18.478)
Ha!
Bob Dunham (01:06:33.027)
was facing doubt and fear.
Could I do this? Would I be good enough? And over time, through recurring experience of learning, yes, I won't be able to do this well as a beginner, but if I get in there, I could have results later. But even more so, it could be fun. It could be fun to open possibilities. It could be fun to see possible. It could be fun to do something.
Jiani (01:07:01.046)
you
Bob Dunham (01:07:07.235)
skillfully that I couldn't do before. And so the challenges, they're still there. They don't go away. You never get good enough to not have challenges unless you just decide to ignore them and kind of hang out where you are. But I think learning is a lifetime journey, a lifetime opportunity. And I'm engaged with...
my questions that fascinate me as part of the way I live my life. So challenge is welcome. It's, yeah.
Jiani (01:07:44.81)
I love that. I resonate with that as well, even though you see me kind of smiling, laughing and happy and...
you know when we had a really good conversation I'm just like so happy and like yeah that's why that's why I'm like you know doing this and but sometimes yeah like I sometimes when we come like Chiyoni you know are you are you are you good are you okay are you good enough to do this like and you know what would you be you know
Bob Dunham (01:08:23.203)
out.
Jiani (01:08:27.31)
I don't know. It's just like the doubt comes and I have to constantly self talk and say, Hey, yes, like self affirm. Like even if you, if you feel like you have to build your own belief systems or sort of like internal spiritual guidance to help you to, to keep, keep venturing, like to keep kind of adventuring and cause you find that fascinating. You keep, you have to keep going.
Bob Dunham (01:08:55.747)
Great. Yeah, great. Having doubt and fear is just human, but we don't need to make it a big deal.
Jiani (01:09:04.302)
and turn that into regenerate, reframe that into excitement and fascination.
Bob Dunham (01:09:13.091)
Exactly. The generative, if I were to use that, the generative point of view is I'm a human being. I am where I am. I can do some things and not do others. And I have choice. And so what's my edge? New possibility. What's the new possibilities I want to step into? And I can always, always do that unless I forget.
Jiani (01:09:35.99)
Then call Bob and say, hey, I need a reminder.
Bob Dunham (01:09:39.543)
Call a friend who helps you remember that.
Jiani (01:09:47.406)
Beautiful. What do you think is your magic then?
Bob Dunham (01:09:53.923)
Well, as we've been talking, I think I'd say two things. My first answer was my ability to live in fascination, to live in questions as opportunities to explore rather than demanding answers or assessing myself because I don't have the answer yet. So I think one of my...
key sources of magic is being able to find fascination.
sometimes in very difficult moments and challenging situations. And the other I would say is my recognition of what I think is the most powerful emotion of all is gratitude. That I constantly bring myself to, I'm grateful for life. I'm grateful for my next breath. I'm grateful that I...
have people who love me and that I can love. Just whenever I get into all my chatter and my issues, no, I just need to come back to gratitude. And the practice, and I do this with my students, is take a deep breath.
Bob Dunham (01:11:18.933)
and enter the mood of gratitude because you did not earn that breath. It is given to you as a gift by life. And life is simply asking you all the time, what are you going to do with the gift? So be grateful.
and honor the gift.
Jiani (01:11:48.142)
beautiful.
Jiani (01:11:55.854)
beautiful. Thank you for sharing this gratitude meditation with our audience today.
Bob Dunham (01:12:04.003)
It's been my pleasure and my honor. Thank you.
Jiani (01:12:10.606)
And for folks who are curious to learn more about generative leadership, check the show notes and you will have all the information to get connected with Bob and hope generative relationships will come out of this podcast. And so there are new possibilities. There's myriads of possibilities coming from.
Bob Dunham (01:12:30.163)
Thank you.
Jiani (01:12:39.566)
this podcast that takes many of our breaths to complete.
Bob Dunham (01:12:44.867)
Thank you.
Jiani (01:12:46.318)
Thank you.
Disclaimer:
The content shared is to highlight the passion and wonder of our guests. It is not professional advice. Please read our evidence-based research to help you develop your unique understanding.
AI technologies have been utilized to assist in creating content derived from genuine conversations. All generated material undergoes thorough human review to ensure accuracy, relevance, and quality.
