Harness Neurodiversity As Organizational Superpower | Rawi Nanakul

Human DevelopmentCommunity & GovernanceNeuroArts & Culture
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📑 Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Overview

02:27 Rawi's Introduction and ADHD Coaching

09:57 The Impact of ADHD on Psychology and Emotions

16:21 Core Strategies for Managing ADHD

29:18 Leadership and ADHD in the Workplace

30:34 Creating an Empathetic Environment for ADHD

39:02 Unleashing the Hidden Potential of ADHD

43:35 Rawi’s MAGIC: Deep connection with people to discover their hidden potential

 

Disclaimer:
The content shared is to highlight the passion and wonder of our guests. It is not professional advice. Please read our evidence-based research to help you develop your unique understanding.

 
 

💕 Story Overview

Dive into the world of ADHD with @MAGICademy S3E8, featuring @Rawi Nanakul (He/Him), an experienced ADHD coach and tech industry product management expert. Discover the hidden potentials of ADHD talents and practical strategies for managing its challenges, including optimizing sleep, exercise, and meditation techniques. Whether you're diagnosed with it, suspect you might have it, or lead a neurodiverse team, this episode offers valuable insights and actionable advice toward a collaborative environment with overall well-being. 

Story Takeaways

  1. Individuals with ADHD often possess hidden talents that can lead to exceptional achievements. Their creative thinking allows for innovative problem-solving, while resilience developed through overcoming challenges fosters persistence. The ability to hyperfocus on engaging tasks can result in expertise, and their high energy and spontaneity are advantageous in fast-paced environments. Coupled with heightened empathy and strong interpersonal skills, these traits make individuals with ADHD valuable assets in various professional and creative fields.

  2. Leaders should focus on leveraging the unique strengths of individuals with ADHD, such as creativity, hyperfocus, and innovative thinking. By matching these talents to appropriate roles, providing flexible work arrangements, and fostering a neurodiversity-friendly culture, leaders can enable talents with ADHD to excel and support their well-being. 

  3. Managing ADHD effectively involves prioritizing sleep, exercising regularly, and practicing meditation. Quality sleep enhances mood and cognitive function, while regular exercise boosts concentration and reduces anxiety. Meditation fosters mindfulness and emotional regulation, helping individuals manage distractions and impulsivity. These strategies create a supportive framework for improved attention and overall well-being.

  4. Rawi's magic lies in his ability to see people's hidden potential and connect with them deeply, helping individuals recognize and embrace their strengths even when they struggle to see them themselves.

 
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    • Barkley, R.A. (1997). Behavioral inhibition sustained attention, and executive functions: constructing a unifying theory of ADHD. Psychological Bulletin, 121 1, 65-94.

    • W, H. (2019). The Creativity of ADHD. Scientific American.

  • Rawi Nanakul is an experienced ADHD and product management coach who empowers neurodivergent tech professionals to thrive in their careers.  Through his coaching, he empowers his clients to find strategies that allow them to thrive, rather than simply cope, with the emotional and attentional difficulties associated with ADHD.

  • Jiani (00:00)

    Welcome to MAGICademy podcast. Today's guest is Rawi and he is a super experienced coach for ADHD product managers and people may wonder what, you know, I don't have ADHD. What does that, you know, why should that matter? we are living in a very. Attention based and overwhelmed informational. society and every day we're bombarded with all type of information. Sometimes we feel like we are having a shorter and shorter attention span, which can potentially impact our ability to focus, our ability to learn new skills. And we always kind of find ourselves caught like on a hamster wheel trying to put off the fires for all the things that's happening. So it will be very insightful to hear what Raleigh has to say about ADHD and people who may suffer similar challenges and what are his suggestions to maintain a protected attention and ability to focus and therefore potentially we can learn more skills that we need so we can collectively thrive. So Raleigh... Welcome to our podcast today. Do you want to give us a better introduction of yourself?

    Rawi (01:24)

    Yep. Hi everyone. My name is Rawi. I use the pronouns he, him. For my accessibility folks out there, I'm a Asian male with short hair wearing a red shirt. I'm also six foot five in Asian, which is one of my superpowers. Very tall. And like Jiani mentioned, I'm an ADHD coach. In a very ADHD way, I had to make my own discipline up.

    Jiani (01:39)

    Very tall.

    Rawi (01:50)

    I do ADHD and product management. If you're not familiar with product management, it is a discipline of creating products. It's more common in the tech industry, but there's also hardware product management besides in addition to software. And so I help people with ADHD, typically in tech roles, be more successful, live their life in their own terms by finding the strategies that work for them. instead of having them continue with the strategies that they've been using that might not be the most effective for them. So you're probably wondering, well, what the heck is an ADHD coach, first of all? An ADHD coach is someone who helps you work towards a goal, knowing that you have ADHD. This is different from your doctor or your therapist.

    Jiani (02:34)

    Yeah.

    Rawi (02:45)

    A doctor or therapist is an unequal relationship of power. It's an unequal power relationship, meaning they have a higher position of power. You're going to them to solve a problem. Hey, my stomach hurts, fix it. My attention is bad, help fix it. They're going to die. A psychiatrist will diagnose you with ADHD. Your general care doctor will take care of your heart, your stomach, et cetera. Where the coach comes in and how it's different is that it's a relationship of equals. Your coach works with you towards achieving a goal together. So you're not going to them to fix a problem for you like you are a doctor. You're going to them for help to get this thing done and specifically to get it done in a way that is ADHD friendly. For me, doing that... means learning about the person, learning about their habits, their feelings, their emotions, essentially their life, and figuring out, okay, what are the beliefs and actions and strategies they use today that make them who they are and what needs to be changed to get this thing done. So that's ADHD coaching in a nutshell.

    Jiani (04:06)

    It's like, someone has been there down that now this person is showing you the way and being your peer to lend you a helping hand. Something like...

    Rawi (04:17)

    Correct. And that's you point out something also very important, or it's different with a doctor. Your doctor, if you wanted them to treat your heart attack, you don't care if they've been through a heart attack, right? You just want the best doctor that's seen as many patients. But with coaching, typically, you want someone who's done the thing. So if you're going to coaching for someone to start a podcast, or coaching to work at a tech company or get into tech, You want someone who's done that job before already, right? Who's walked that journey and can come help you. Whereas in the context of a medical context, doesn't necessarily have to be that way, right? You just want someone who's the expert that can find what the right path is.

    Jiani (05:01)

    Yeah. And that got me interested. Like what, what got you started on this path, lending a helping hand for fellow ADHD product managers or non-product manager.

    Rawi (05:16)

    So I have to tell you the story in the most ADHD way possible, meaning over talking and telling you too long of a story. And I'll divide it into two parts. That is one of the hallmarks of ADHD, or one of the symptoms is just too talkative. And I'll give you the not a bad thing, especially when you have a 30-minute podcast to talk about, right? For me finding out I had ADHD, I had

    Jiani (05:23)

    Yeah What a bad thing. Yeah.

    Rawi (05:42)

    I found out as an adult when my wife and I went to marriage therapy for the first time, I explained to the therapist our problems and they asked, hey, have you ever been tested for ADHD? And in my mind, I thought, no. I used to be an attention researcher. I used to be a clinical researcher in autism and attention. Someone would probably have mentioned this to me. Everyone else I worked with was neurodiverse. I seemed, I thought I was normal. And then I went to go see a psychiatrist and I got tested and I found out I had ADHD. So the whole time I, now I look back and the reason why I got along with everyone there and my research team was because I was just like them. So fast forward though, once I got diagnosed about three years ago and the product management component of it, I didn't know that coaching was a thing. So I saw a psychiatrist, got some meds. That's kind of it. I didn't know about coaching. I just thought you take the pills and then you're supposed to be fine. But you're really not. We'll talk about medication more later on if you'd like, but it's almost like you take the medication, you feel better, but you haven't actually learned how to do the skill that you want. So if you're taking, it might be easier to write a book if you're taking ADHD medication. doesn't actually teach you how to write the book, right? You might be less anxious to write the book, but you still have to figure out how to write the book. And the coaching component for me was combining this old life of mine of being a clinical researcher and this new life of mine of being in tech, where I've worked in the last 10 years, into one life. So rather than having a parallel life of here's tech, here's ADHD, combined them. And now I work with individuals who work in tech with ADHD. And I also write a newsletter that is around ADHD and working in tech. That is my overly long story.

    Jiani (07:44)

    curious. I like that. I think people may have ADHD, but they don't know that they have it. And it's interesting how they kind of categorize and put a tag like put a label on the symptom. And it's interesting how that can have potentially an impact on you. How would How does ADHD really impact our psychology, our ability to feel, ability to focus, ability to do? Yeah. What, what's the, what's the impact really?

    Rawi (08:17)

    And so let's take a step back to answer that and define ADHD. For those of you who are listening that have heard the term but don't quite know what it means or stands for, ADHD stands for Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. Previously, it was just Attention Deficit Disorder, ADD. If you're wondering, ADHD is the updated term to ADD. And they're not two different disorders. They're the same disorder. We've just updated it to include this hyperactivity. And the best way I like to explain ADHD is that most people think it's about the attention, right? Like someone's not paying attention to you or they hyper-focus like the hyperactivity where they could watch TV for eight hours straight, or they could code for eight hours straight. The stereotype of ADHD, at least when I was growing up, was kind of the hyperactive little boy. It was very much around just boys and this hyperactivity, like they can't keep themselves going still. But in reality, there are more nuances to ADHD. There are three types overall of ADHD. One is called primarily inattentive, meaning you have... Forgetful, you don't pay attention to details, you're just kind of daydreaming a lot. The other kind is primarily hyperactive, which is the hyper focus. You can sit and just do this thing that you love, but if it's something you don't love, you just don't pay attention to it. So that's some folks, like hygiene can be a struggle. They might be able to. play their favorite video game all day, but they struggle to brush their teeth every day. And then the third type is combined in which people have both of these traits. I have both, I exhibit symptoms of both, and people can change throughout time about these. They're not necessarily in this one box. Now here's the big thing though is for me, My conceptualization of ADHD, it is a psychological disorder, but its attention is the byproduct of this emotional regulation. So to me, ADHD is an emotional dysregulation disorder. There's a neurobiological disorder that affects emotional regulation, but the byproduct of that is attention, because that's the only thing others see. Right? So I'll give you an example. Let's say that you go up to someone with ADHD, and they're like, hey, Alex, man, I'm really upset with you because this thing didn't work the way that it was supposed to. And let's say Alex has ADHD, and they're just sitting there on their phone playing with the phone, and they're not paying attention. Well, in their head, they're probably thinking, Oh my God, I messed up. Oh my God, oh my God. I can't believe I did that. I'm totally screwed. I'm gonna lose my job. I'm so messed up. All these other, all these crazy emotions, right? And they're typically exaggerated to the situation, but the other person just sees that they're playing with their phone and they think like, oh, well, they don't care. They're not listening, right? And that's really the hidden part of ADHD that people don't. realize is that the focus is just the stuff that you see. It's the tip of the iceberg. It's the emotional dysregulation that is the biggest challenge for folks. And it's also something that under the US DSM criteria, DSM is the kind of psychiatric book on how we diagnose, doesn't include emotional dysregulation. However, the European standard does. So this emotional dysregulation, we're aware of it in the US. It's growing, but there's not quite that full acceptance. So if you take away anything else from this podcast today, it's that ADHD is really about this emotional dysregulation. And the focus part is just the stuff you see. That's actually almost the easier stuff in a lot of ways.

    Jiani (12:44)

    How, how does ADHD impact the emotions? it is this like, does that play tricks on your self perception, self value, response to crisis? Like how, how does that impact? the psychology of someone who's having ADHD.

    Rawi(13:08)

    Yeah. It's a great question. So I, I'll start off with this, if you want to call it a metaphor, but to me, ADHD is a gift. It's not a superpower. It's not a kryptonite. And a gift is what you make of it. And with ADHD for some folks, they do great in a crisis, right? They're able to hyper-focus. They're able to drown out everything else. Right? So if the, if the building's on fire, that's the person that you want. Right? But when it comes to the emotional component, that thing that also makes them good in a crisis can also make the littlest thing feel very difficult. And I'll use an analogy of a wave. So let's say that you are a neurotypical and you're standing on a rock in the middle of the water. Right? And someone says, ah, Rawi you've gotten fat. Which if you're Chinese like me, happens every time I see family, right? And it might be a normal splash, right? Just you get hit and you're just like, all right, that's fine. That's whatever. When you have ADHD though, the wave can sometimes be a splash when that happens. Sometimes it's a full on wave that just hits you like a 30 foot tsunami. And so you kind of never know how you're emotionally going to react to something. which can make it very difficult to do basic things, but sometimes easier to do extraordinary things, right? Like when I face the crisis. And so the, most of the time, because of this emotional dysregulation, a lot of the self-perception is shame, self-loathing. They're mostly negative, unfortunately, right? Because if you've been told your whole life, like, hey, why can't you just sit still? Why can't you hold down a job? Why can't you just do the same, do the thing just like everyone else? You end up with this just reinforced negative self-talk. And we see this in the statistics. In one Canadian study that was done a few years ago, one in four women with ADHD had reported attempting suicide. I have struggled with suicidal ideation throughout my life. Even before I knew I had ADHD, I just thought it was a normal thing. Rates of anxiety are almost double than neurotypical peers. Rates of self-harm lifespan is lowered due to risky behavior and impulsive behavior. The emotional dysregulation really impacts the psychology most of the time negatively to the point where people with ADHD are living shorter and more difficult lives.

    Jiani (15:58)

    Thank you for sharing with us on that. And I think I resonate part of it too. I think our audiences, probably resonate part of it as well. I think, especially the younger generation that's coming out, you know, the depression rate, the anxiety rates are, you know, through the, through the roof. And, you never know if that's ADHD or if that's like a societal pressure. So. I feel it's. little calming, especially after the COVID and the whole globe, the globe of like people kind of go through a common challenge together. And I think we walk out of this experience with deep level, which I hope deep level empathy to kind of try to understand everybody is fighting a different battle. You either know it or you don't. So how do you manage that? with that sort of challenge, like the emotion responses, management, the self perception. Is there a way to help manage that? And I think that the question, the reason behind that is it's going to be very helpful for people who have diagnosed ADHD. It will also benefit people who have similar, who been through similar experiences, but they are also seeking solutions. And I know that you've looked through a lot of solutions like coaching, therapy, medication, and exercise, like all sorts of you've kind of went through the whole process. And can you help us understand what are some basic evergreen strategies that people can try.

    Rawi (17:49)

    Yeah, I think that before I give you the strategies, I want to kind of add a little bit more science to your point about COVID and trauma. Because those are actually very important points you've brought up in that ADHD is a disorder that affects your executive function. So think of executive function as the D- There are between 10 and 12 domains that cover your higher order function. So things like goal setting, organization, emotional regularization, impulsivity, perception of time. These are all things that we all have and experience. And the things like clients who are immigrants or second gen immigrants like myself. And it's hard to say when you go through these experiences of trauma, is it the ADHD? Cause now your executive function is dysregulated, right? And so whether or not you have ADHD or some sort of executive function disorder, some of the strategies I'll talk about will be able to help you in both facets. But I just want to point out that sometimes it's really hard to kind of untangle, is this my ADHD? Is it, do I not process emotions well? Because I'm a child of Chinese immigrants who I'm pretty sure have ADHD, but also were not taught how to process emotions, right? My mom just told me just to go back to work. And so there are these other factors that go on as well. It's all under this umbrella of an executive function. And ADHD just happens to be one of them. But the experiences can be very similar. But the underlying cause is different, if that makes sense. Experience can be similar. Causes will be different or can be different. So strategies. When I onboard new clients, there are three areas that I always start off with first. One is sleep.

    Jiani (19:37)

    Mm.

    Rawi (19:48)

    eight hours of sleep on a regular schedule. Seems very simple. However, most people with ADHD experience something called delayed sleep syndrome, which is their sleep cycle is different from the regular, I don't know, 6 a.m. to 10 p.m. cycle. In other words, they're not morning people and they don't become awake until three or five. you know, 3 p.m., 5 p.m., and then they're up until 4 a.m., whatever it may be. And in a neurotypical world, they have to force themselves to go to bed at a certain time in order to fit their work schedule or whatnot. Or they just don't have a sleep schedule. Like, it's very hard for them to sleep. It's very hard for me to sleep in general. My mind is always going. And so the first area is getting, establishing a regular sleep cycle. There are supplements that can help, but the most basic thing is understanding when is my cycle, when am I most alert? So I'm a morning person, I get up at 5.30, I go run, I have this routine. And so I'm a morning person, so 5.30 is okay. But let's say that I do have sleep, delayed sleep syndrome. Maybe going to bed from midnight. Maybe sleeping from midnight to eight is actually more appropriate for me. And it's really just finding that system. It might not be perfect because you might have to be at a job at a certain time, but coming, creating that plan, and releasing yourself from the shame of that, but also just getting yourself into just a regular sleep pattern, which your body will adapt to eventually. So first thing is sleep.

    Jiani (21:11)

    Mm. Hmm.

    Rawi (21:34)

    After sleep, it's exercise. Exercise is extremely important for people with ADHD for two reasons. One, there is a protein, it's BNSF. I don't remember the acronyms, the meanings off the top of my head right now, but they are a protein that help you form new neuro-ontocore connections. So it's the stuff that helps you.

    Jiani (21:41)

    Mm.

    Rawi (22:00)

    think better, form new memories, et cetera. Increases your working memory, which is often impaired. So working memory is that memory that you have as you're doing a task. And the second part is balance. So in one of the theories of ADHD, so there's a hypothesis of the default mode, which is this daydreaming mode, and memory consolidation mode. So it's kind of like when you're just trying to think of whatever's going on in life. If you're a creative person, it's oftentimes when you're finding this unexpected thing. And the other side of it is task positive network. This is the mode of your brain where you're doing this thing and you're staying on it. And one of the hypotheses of ADHD is that there's a dysregulation of being able to take yourself in and out of modes. So a neurotypical person could say, I'm in a daydream now. Oh, I need to do this task now. Right? By exercising balance, which stimulates your cerebellum, which is this area in the back of your brain, it can increase the neuronal connections that help you switch between these two modes in order to be able to pay attention more on command. So I recommend at least 30 to 40 minutes of moderate to vigorous exercise. I run three to five miles a day, five days a week. I don't say this to brag. I'm telling you this because that is what I require, that is what I require of myself to feel like a normal human being. If I don't run, I'm an anxious mess. I can't think, I can't, you know, my self-talk, my negative self-talk goes through the roof. I can't concentrate. And so, The exercise really is that kind of thing that allows me to consolidate and kind of work through the anxiety and also increase dopamine to my brain, which is one of the neurotransmitters for attention. All these great byproducts, all these great brain things that happen through exercise. So sleep, exercise, those are the first two. And... The third one, you probably won't be surprised, is meditation. And the reason for the meditation isn't necessarily because it's what's hip and cool right now, but it's a dedicated time for you to be in touch with your own feelings. And this is something that ADHD folks really struggle with or can struggle with is because if you're driven by all these impulses, right, your brain is saying, do this, do that. and your shame is saying you should do this, you should do that, you actually lose touch with what you actually want and feel, right? You lose touch with your emotions and so you just end up being this like talkative, insecure, whatever, which I would be had I not taken medication today. And even if you're just doing 15 minutes of just meditating or walking just by yourself. One of the studies that I found or that I listened to through the Humanity Podcast was you had additional focus for two weeks. So 15 minutes in one day will give you better focus for two weeks, or at least that's what one of the studies said. But it's really, it's being able to be in touch with yourself. And that's the last stage. And the reason why it's the last stage is because sleep, if you're too tired to think and feel what's going on, you're just a mess. No matter what strategy or what you feel is not really gonna be right. Like if I'm gonna ask you what your opinion on something after you haven't slept for 20 hours, you're probably not gonna give me a great answer. Exercise, so be rested, exercise stimulates the neurons and the...

    Jiani (25:49)

    Hmm.

    Rawi (25:58)

    neurotransmitters in your brain, all the fun brain chemicals that help you pay attention, do the things, feel less anxiety, and then finally meditation to allow you to connect with yourself. So now that I'm regulated, what do I want to do today? Who do I want to be? How do I want to show up? That having that foundation, once you have that foundation and it's a continual struggle to have this foundation, that's when the coaching, the ADHD therapy, all the stimulant medications, everything else is far more effective once you have that basic grounding. Regardless of you have ADHD or not, if you have autism or any other type of neurodiversity or executive function, that'll be helpful.

    Jiani (26:34)

    Mm. Yeah, or just basic anxiety from daily lives. I have a follow-up question. I tried to do meditation and I fell off the habit. I think the consistency and the persistence is really the key. How can people build up their consistency?

    Rawi (26:47)

    Correct.

    Jiani (27:05)

    to do this on a day to day or even like a regular three times a day, three times a week or something like that. Like how to not fall off the habits of doing that.

    Rawi (27:17)
    I would say make it small, make it fun, make it creative. And by that, I mean, oftentimes when they say like, oh, you need to meditate, and it's like getting on a pillow, lighting a candle, it's this big thing typically, right? And if you think about all the things that go into it, you're like, oh, this is too much. I don't know how you meditate. But I've found that Even if it's just me going on a walk where I leave my phone on silent, or I don't even have my phone, and it's just me counting my breaths as I walk and not having any other type of interruption, that's okay. That's the creative part. You kind of build up to the meditation. I did a lot of martial arts, so I had to learn these types of meditations, but I learned them after having done a bunch of exercise. And so I meditate typically after exercise. Or I'll meditate as I walk, as I'm in motion. And I think that's something that someone with ADHD, it's okay. You might talk to a mindfulness person and say like, oh, if you're walking and meditating, that doesn't count. But I'm gonna say it does because I still have the positive effect of like, hey, this is just my time to connect with myself.

    Jiani (28:42)

    Mmm.

    Rawi (28:43)

    So whatever your strategy is right now, I would just take what works for you. Like what is the draw of it? And what is another creative way? How can we fit it into your schedule and just in a, in a different way that we can just insert it in now, and even if you just get like a little wind here and there, that might help you build you up to the full on candle and couch or candle and pillow type setup.

    Jiani (29:08)

    I like that. It's very practical. Some people that I talk to, they're like, Oh, I'm just, I can't see myself sit there and just meditate. And they probably have their own hobby. Like people would like to play with plants and they will, you know, grow some plants. And some people prefer knitting. Some people just prefer what bird watching or they want to go by near an ocean and just like watch the waves like There's like all kinds of ways to not meditate, but like to cultivate space to, for us to get closer to ourselves. I think that's kind of the ultimate.

    Rawi (29:55)

    correct.

    Jiani (29:55)

    Now let's put this conversation in a bigger context inside a organization, no matter how small or how big could be a startup, could be, you know, a thousand people organization for learning leaders who are out there listening to this podcast. how would they best respond or take care? people who are dealing with challenges with ADHD, whether consciously or unconsciously.

    Raw (30:27)

    Yeah, great question. As a leader in a company, first things first, don't go around trying to diagnose everyone around you. This is something that I struggle with, because I work with people with ADHD, and I'm just like, oh, that person probably has it. You just don't say anything. But really, it doesn't really matter if you know whether or not the person has ADHD. It doesn't matter. matter if the person's disclosed. It's really about having the humility to continuously talk about your own struggles and through vulnerability. So Brene Brown is a famous emotions researcher. Vulnerability is the act of extending yourself, a piece of yourself, even if you don't know when it's going to happen. And so as a leader, Continuously being able to be vulnerable and admit when you make mistakes, admit when you don't know. And I'll give you an example of this in a practicality. Let's say that you're a leader and you're like, hey, Bob, you need to go get this thing done. You're a principal product manager or principal tech, you should be able to figure it out on your own. That is a trap for somebody who is neurodiverse. because there's aren't a lot of parameters to it. And they're just like, I don't know what I'm supposed to do with this. It's very vague. And suddenly it's a judgment on them because it's like, well, you should be able to do this because of the title that you have. Right. So as a leader, instead of just saying, Hey, you should be able to do this because you have your ex title. It's being able to approach it with humility and say, Hey, my boss, right. Cause they typically have a boss. Is what. stated to me to this, I'm not quite sure what they're talking about. Just stating what they know. Like, I think they mean this. I think success looks like that. I think we could start here. I think so and so could help. So really just admitting, owning up to the ambiguity of the situation. And by saying that, it gives also the other person the data points they can use to go forward, right? Because now suddenly they know who they need to talk to for help. what does success look like with the manager? And I got this advice from a coach friend of mine at Evolve Coaching. And he mentioned that when you just hand something off to someone and say like, hey, just take care of this, you are accepting whatever they give you, right? So if I was like Jiani, make me a logo for my company with no other input, I'm accepting that whatever you give me is what I'm gonna get, right? And that's like, to me, that's always, it's really helped me. Cause like you, when you, when you just throw it out there, like you're taking on that risk, it's not them, right? Like I'm just, you're just going to go off and just like, well, here, rowdy, here's a circle and square. I don't know, you're done. the manager actually bears a lot or the leader bears a lot of it. So when you're working with nerd, if you suspect that you have neurodiverse team members, it's really about being able to listen to them. Talk to them. Ask them if there are other resources. Being aware of what resources your company has. Maybe they have an HR team that is aware of this. Or maybe there is a coaching program if you're at a bigger company like Amazon and Google. They have on-site ADHD coaching and wellness coaching. So just being aware and listening to your employees and being able to have an open mind as well what the solution might be. I think a common trap that we all practice, and I'm guilty of this as well as someone who owns two companies right now and has direct reports that are neurodiverse, is that I assume that, well, I got it done this way, I assume that's how they might want to get it done. And that's often not the case, especially when it's things that aren't even in my domain. I am not a designer. I can't draw for anything. And so it's just really about

    Jiani (34:24)

    Mm-hmm.

    Rawi (34:35)

    being open to a different path, making sure that you have a culture that allows you to present another path, and a culture that allows you to make mistakes and embraces them, and you embrace that ambiguity together rather than as a judgment of this other person, regardless of their narrative or not.

    Jiani (34:53)

    So to have a, build a safe environment where people feel safe to disclose, to share, and then have time and empathy to connect and share their own struggles of being human to the people that you lead or to people that you follow.

    Rawi (35:14)

    Yes, but it starts with you as the leader. Right? You would ask most leaders to say, like, I want to build a safe environment, but how do you do that? You do that by talking about your mistakes, admitting when you don't know. Right? Because that's the culture that will persist with others. When you show that you are able to own up to a mistake or you don't know all the answers, it allows your team members to do the same. It's really about you setting that example.

    Jiani (35:17)

    Mm. Very good conversation. Before we move to the magic part, is there anything else that you wanted to share that our questions hasn't touched on yet?

    Rawi (35:54)

    Yeah, I like to share some tips around disclosure. So you had mentioned earlier, like a safe space for someone to disclose. I get this question a lot. Should I disclose my ADHD diagnosis or my diagnosis of neurodiversity? And that's actually a very complicated question. And I'm gonna sidestep this question a little bit. And in that, it's not necessarily about disclosing. Because once you disclose, you have to think about what's next. What do you want me to do with that?

    Jiani (36:13) Mm.

    Rawi (36:23)

    So if I were to tell you, Jiani I have ADHD, what does that mean to me? Or what does that mean to you? And so it's really thinking about.

    Jiani (36:29)

    Mm.

    Rawi (36:31)

    If I am going to, it's not as slow about do I disclose, but what do I need? So here's some practical tips as a leader, how you can do to make a more inclusive working environment. Number one, always having agendas in your meetings. I don't know if you've ever been in a work situation where someone just threw a 15 minute meeting on you for like a leader through 15 minute meeting on, on with you, no context, no agenda. And you're probably sitting there like, this is it. I'm probably fired. You know, I don't know what I messed up on, but this is it. And then they get on the call and they're just like, hey, I just need your help with this one thing. Right? You could have saved that other person so much strife. How'd you just put it in an agenda? Right? It's also just very kind and more effective if you're working with a senior leader of just having the agenda for them so they know how to contact switch. Right? Some people, if you have ADHD, you might struggle with contact switching. But if you have the agenda there, it's less difficult. And if you are the leader and you always send meeting agendas, meetings with agendas, it invites other people to do the same. And so again, it starts with you. Another example I use, I do coaching, I meet a lot of strangers. The first thing I always say is, my name is Rawi. You can pronounce it like Maui with an R. I use the pronouns he him. I use the pronouns he him.

    Jiani (37:49)

    Rawi

    Rawi (37:51)

    How may I address you? And it invites the other person to share their pronouns. And now you're not trying to wonder what pronouns to use. Hey, I don't want to mess up. It's just inviting them. Just tell me how you want to be addressed. And very recently, I've had two experiences where two people used their pronouns, and they were caught off guard, but they just felt so seen by just having this small little app. Being able to show up, just directly say, hey, these are my pronouns. How can I address you? There's such power in being seen.

    Jiani (38:23)

    Hmm.

    Rawi (38:23)

    And I think there was one more I like to share, but. I'm blanking on it right now. There is one more, but I will I'll have to follow up on you. But. Go ahead.

    Jiani (38:33)

    Yeah, yeah, no worries. That got... Go ahead. I mean to ask another follow up question. So we've talked about how we can potentially help people who are dealing with the challenge of ADHD. But on the other side, there are hidden powers for folks who are... dealing with ADHD, you mentioned about they have the ability to super focus during crisis. They're able to be able to kind of handle a lot of things with a piece of, with a very calm mind, and they probably will learn faster. Like, how can we build an environment where people who have ADHD or similar symptoms or similar experiences can actually thrive and learn faster and make bigger contributions. Is there a way? What does this like how? Yeah.

    Rawi (39:33)

    Yeah, I think the first thing as a leader is just not, is not being afraid to see someone with neurodiversity as a burden. Because I think that's what happens to most places is like, they're afraid either to get sued, they're afraid this employee is going to take more work. But that's typically not the case. It's just that the employee or the person just needs a different way to do the same task. And most tasks were designed for a neurotypical, someone with neurodiversity can do the same thing. They just need an accommodation, just a different way, right? So if you are sensitive to sounds, you wear noise-canceling headphones all the time. And so really, like, it's the beginning of that is just recognizing there are different ways and that not to react with fear, because I think what happens, and I've read so many stories on this online of, you know, I disclose I had ADHD and I was fired. And there's just this... There's a go-to of just like, this person's a burden. I don't know what to do with them. I'd rather just get rid of them and try to figure out how to work with them. And you lose so much because people with ADHD are typically more creative. They are typically more hardworking because they've had to work so much harder just to get where they are. Right. So there's all these other magical components that you miss out by just saying, well, you're not worth any more effort. Cough cough

    Jiani (40:56)

    there's a lot of hidden there. So there is a lot of hidden potentials right there. We need leaders need to kind of seek ways to, to tap and to unfold such potentials. That's great. So in this conversation, we've talked about, you know, what is ADHD and what are some miscommunic, uh, misconcepts about ADHD. How does ADHD impact our psychology, our emotion? What are some practical strategies to manage ADHD? And how can organizational leaders, whether startup or big enterprises, strategically or empathetically manage or handle or work with... people with ADHD in a more empathetic and empowered approach. And as we conclude the content part, let's move into the magic part. So what did Rawi like to do when you were like 11, 12 years old? And what would that time look like?

    Rawi (42:10) I played a lot of video games. I played a lot of PlayStation 1 and I played flag football. That was video games and sports. And that's still true today.

    Jiani (42:20)

    That's very typical, that's great. So what do you think is your magic then?

    Rawi (42:27) I think it's my ability to see people. Oftentimes I see people in ways that they don't even see themselves. It's my ability to connect with them and just understand and listen. And I just really enjoy it. Being a coach or being a researcher or building software I'm constantly talking to people and asking them questions about how they think about this and think about that. And, it's, it's really fun for me to see someone just open up and realize like, oh, this is like, I had this ability the whole time, but no one had ever asked me about it or, you know, I wanted to do this thing or, yeah, it's just seeing people for the first time, even though I struggled to see myself and that's the catch 22 of ADHD. I could see the hidden potential, the hidden gifts of other people, but if you asked me about me, I was like, oh, I just think I'm a not a barely passable human being.

    Jiani (43:24)

    We are usually very tough to ourselves. I resonate with you on that too. I think some of the inner talks that I hear from myself is very tough.

    Rawi (43:35)

    Is that ADHD or just being Chinese? I don't know. Just having Chinese parents. Hard to tell.

    Jiani (43:38)

    I don't know. Hard to tell. That's what that's about wonderful conversation, Rawi that we had. I know that you're also running a wine company, so I just hope all the good luck coming your way. Send you a lot of blessings and thank you so much for sharing your insights, dedication, and time to empower fellow human beings who are on similar paths. It's a lot of gratitude here.

    Rawi (44:08)

    Thank you so much, Jiani. And if folks want to follow my work, they can find me at techetypically.com, or you can find me on Substack. Just search RAWI, R-A-W-I. I'm the only person, so I'm the only RAWI on Substack. Thank you so much.

 
 
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