How VR and Biometrics Reshape Leadership Development | Thomas De Bruyne
Disclaimer:
The content shared is to highlight the passion and wonder of our guests. It is not professional advice. Please read our evidence-based research to help you develop your unique understanding.
💕 Story Overview
#MAGICademy S3E3, we had the pleasure to meet @Thomas De Bruyne, an explorer in the emerging space between leadership development, virtual realities, and biometrics. He discusses how virtual reality & biometrics can radically shift and expand perspectives while biometrics measure such transformation through data of heart, mind, and body, enabling us to develop a deep sense of inner connection and resilience. Thomas also emphasizes the importance of psychological safety in creating a supportive and inclusive work environment. Thomas also highlights the role of curiosity and childlike wonder in fostering creativity and innovation.
Story Takeaways
Virtual reality cultivates transformative leadership through immersive simulations that engage the "magic" of suspended disbelief. This unique ability to make the unreal feel real allows leaders to fully inhabit complex scenarios and diverse perspectives. By tapping into imagination and emotional engagement, VR accelerates the development of adaptive thinking, systems understanding, and empathy.
Biometrics offer a data-driven approach to measure and cultivate transformative leadership by tracking heart, mind, and body responses. Monitoring biomarkers like heart rate variability, EEG patterns, and physiological stress indicators during VR simulations and daily activities fosters deep inner connection and real-time self-awareness. This enables leaders to identify stress triggers, enhance resilience, and improve emotional regulation.
Thomas’ MAGIC: Retain a childlike sense of wonder while being a connector for innovation.
#TransformativeLeadership, #VirtualReality, #Biometrics, #PsychologicalSafety, #Curiosity, #ChildlikeWonder, #StressManagement,#Resilience
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00:00 Meet Thomas the explorer in leadership development
04:31 What is transformative leadership
10:30 How can virtual reality power transformative leadership
13:11 What role does psychological safety play?
16:11 How safety (non-judgement) welcomes curiosity and wonder
22:31 Biometrics and transformative leadership
26:55 Harmonizing transformative leadership with non-negotiable outcomes
32:26 The MAGIC of Thomas De Bruyne
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Why Virtual Reality is a Game Changer in Perspective Shifting: https://youtu.be/n4HFbkoWxOo
The Power of Virtual Reality in Leadership Training: https://youtu.be/xlgH4N6v1b4
Unlocking Human Potential Through Psychological Safety: https://youtu.be/hsNlO3FkMKI
VR for Social-Emotional Intelligence: https://youtu.be/TZBBe9FICzI
The Role of Psychological Safety in Leadership Development: https://youtu.be/r5jSp4mFlL0
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Hogan, T.C., Gallagher, S.M., Ousey, N., & Schmitt, R. (2021). The Virtual Transformational Leadership Development Experience: Creating a Classroom of the Future. International Journal of Business and Management Research.
Parra, E., Chicchi Giglioli, I.A., Philip, J., Carrasco-Ribelles, L.A., Marín-Morales, J., & Alcañiz Raya, M. (2021). Combining Virtual Reality and Organizational Neuroscience for Leadership Assessment. Applied Sciences.
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Thomas De Bruyne, whose fascination with human complexity and living systems has shaped his path. From delving into organizational psychology, L&D and leadership coaching to overcoming acute rheumatoid arthritis, Thomas funneled all those experiences in his newly created company: BeInX (pronounced as either 'beinks' or 'Be In X'). BeInX is his platform to guide leaders and teams through emerging tech opportunities to evolve their business, with mindful intention. Inspired by Jiani's infectious spirit of wonder, Thomas is excited to share the sparks that guided him onto this transformative journey.
Website: www.beinx.xyz
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thomas-de-bruyne/
Email: thomas.debruyne@beinx.xyz
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Jiani (00:00)
Welcome to MAGICademy podcast. Today we have Thomas and Thomas has been leading the exploration in Deloitte for almost a decade, exploring how emerging technologies can potentially leverage to power up leadership development.
And it's, you know, the dimension technology could include virtual reality. And we even go beyond that web three blockchain biometrics and all interesting technologies. And when we, when he's exploring leadership, it's not just leadership, it's transformative leadership. So what's that you may wonder. So let's start our podcast and Thomas, welcome to our podcast.
Thomas De Bruyne (00:41)
Awesome, thank you Jiani for such a wonderful introduction, it's a pleasure to be here.
Jiani (00:47)
Beautiful and For our audience who are curious about you. Can you share with us a little bit of Your background and how you got to where you are Be so curious
Thomas De Bruyne (01:03)
Of course, of course, let's go. So I'm Thomas and by nature of education, I'm an organizational psychologist because I was just so curious about the depths of the human mind. I originally wanted to even pursue clinical psychology and then I just realized that maybe I could have a bigger impact on people's health and joy in life.
working with them on a bigger scale within platforms that a lot of people already present at, which is work. So I shifted my focus to organizational psychology and I became especially interested in leadership and learning. And that's really where my passion came from, especially looking at Cambodia where I traveled after graduation and to some other countries in between, mainly Saudi Stasia.
I just saw that successful societies seem to have leadership and education rights. In Cambodia, where you had the horrible genocide by the Ratkmer 40-45 years ago now, they basically abolished education. They killed people for wearing glasses and being able to read.
a vision of a perfect society, very ego-driven from a select amount of people. And that's where I really embodied how important leadership and learning are for the thriving of any kind of society. And later down the road I also became intrigued in how technology can help us achieve that. My own personal experience was when I became an eagle in a virtual reality headset for the very first time.
I was mindblown by how easily my consciousness was transported in a non-human being, an eagle, and how my brain was tricked into a different kind of perception. So then I figured if this is possible with as abstract of a version of an experience where you become an eagle, if you can customize those kind of experiences specifically for leaders.
to help them learn and expand their sense of self, their vision on the world, their interconnectedness with their organization and team members that could yield results that are never going to be replicable in e-learning. For example, which I was by then creating for Deloitte when I was working there. So my whole journey in the passion of leadership and learning led me onto a corporate consultant career.
for a number of years and recently I exited this world to start my own company called Beings. And there is so much more to talk about, but maybe let's stick with this for now for an introduction and dive into some of the further questions.
Jiani (04:03)
Yeah, that's beautiful. And we're probably curious, like, thank you for sharing the story of you transforming into an eagle flying through the sky and totally changing a different perspective, a non-human but much bigger than human perspective of the world. Could you share a little bit?
Um, why, why virtual reality, um, the star definitely resonated, but what made you committed to the power of virtual reality and biometrics and, and other emerging technologies in terms of, um, leadership and why. And also before we answer this question, we'll be curious, like we've talked about like leadership.
for a long time, but you're talking about transformative leadership. So what's the difference between transformative leadership and the traditional sense of leadership?
Thomas De Bruyne (05:08)
Yeah, very good question. And you mentioned something like on point, we've been talking about leadership for a very long time. And if you look throughout the literature and the perspectives on leadership throughout our human history, we have grown beyond like initial models of like the great men leadership model, where you have those big personalities and they represent countries.
and they are in charge of pretty much anything, which also led us to believe that leadership is inherited, like you're either born as a leader or you're not. And moving beyond that model, we started to disseminate leadership more into a model of traits, in the sense that there are certain leadership traits that scholars identified, which constitutes a leader. And those traits are not as inherited as we thought they were.
they can be taught and learned. And then even there is an evolution where we moved beyond the fixed set of traits that people believed constitutes a leader, and we moved into more of situational leadership where different situations require different forms of leadership, different personalities, different strengths and traits. And from there, what's interesting is to see that in the current corporate
societies and models. We evolved into a system of leadership where we associate the role of leaders more with management. Most of the leaders have an important management function and although that's not what leadership really stands for in its definition, it's right now what we witness the most that when people call you a leader you typically hold some form of management position in a company.
and you have some form of control and authority in a system. And where I believe a lot of the tension is coming from, and where in a second I'll be moving into what transformative leadership is, is that managing people, managing processes with a certain set of incentives aligned to organizational success, which are fixed to a big extent, they don't really serve
as well as they used to be because our world has become increasingly complex, uncertain, volatile, all of the VUCA elements are there and now we are fully living it. And when I'm working with senior leaders in these bigger organizations, I sense that a lot of the tension is coming from what they were used to as a successful leader, what used to work for them, doesn't really work anymore. A lot of people got promoted into leadership.
positions because they had very strong analytical mindsets and skills. I quote one of the leaders, like, I came to become a Deloitte partner because I was good in Excel. So it's funny how these traits and these skills were valued back then and now, while still important, it becomes so much more complex. So leadership becomes more complex. And when I'm talking about transformative leadership, I'm hinting at the...
capacity of people to embrace uncertainty, to navigate through disruption and to find like the humanity in there, because eventually you're leading a team of humans, you're not leading a team of processes and incentives, or numbers. Eventually it's people coming up with it, and most people get it, but they're not quite sure in how to navigate this whole shift. So...
What I also associate with transformative leadership, it's linked to models of consciousness. So where the management position is more centered around the sense of the ego as a self, because I will make sure that we can reach those results and this is like the certain set of processes and this is the limited context we are operating in. It's quite simplified and it also comes from a more egocentric perspective of the world.
which is not bad in itself, it's just not really fitting to the world that we live in today. So when we expand the transformative leadership, we transform our sense of ego, our sense of self, into something that encompasses more of the complexity of the living systems. We are part of the ecosystems that our organizations operate within, and how we can navigate from that sense of expansion.
after transforming from a more eco-centric view of the world towards a more extended, expensive world view. And that is what I'm hinting at with transformative leadership, that there is this kind of transformation that happens to augment our perspectives, to embrace complexity. And then there are of course more down-to-earth skills and capabilities that you can learn that can help you with navigation.
Jiani (10:03)
Mm.
Thomas De Bruyne (10:22)
But the real transformative part, that's what I'm pointing at when I'm using this word in leadership.
Jiani (10:30)
That's beautiful. And why virtual reality first? Like, we could have prioritized other technologies, but why virtual reality as a first step?
Thomas De Bruyne (10:44)
Yes, yeah, so in essence, I don't believe we need virtual reality. I don't believe we need technologies. I don't believe we need SAP to an extent. But the reality is that we do have all these opportunities. We do have all these technologies that are not going to go anywhere. But in essence, all we want to come back to is like an expanded view and an embodiment of human connection.
And since we have technologies available and we don't have societies catered around coming around the campfire with our micro societies, we need tools who can help us scale human connection and who can help us scale those learning experiences that we used to have when we were living in the jungles and deserts and more inside of nature. Now we are to a certain extent much more disconnected than we used to be.
But I believe that technology is not either a bad or a good thing, it just amplifies our intentions. So it's the same with a hammer, it can be a tool for putting a picture on your wall or for hurting someone. And with this context, I believe virtual reality is a very powerful tool to expand consciousness. Like, I became an eagle in the split of a second, which is really hard to do with any other tools that we currently have.
I believe the same mechanisms can be better understood and used to help people connect more deeply within themselves and even practice and role play with human-like avatars that you can see that they're not real, you know that they're not real, but somehow your body, your brains, they believe that they are real because there are certain components that constitutes a real end of experience in a virtual world. So...
you can practice social-emotional intelligence by talking to an avatar and taking that embodied experience, bringing it into the real world and not just expanding your own sense of self but also training very distinct capabilities that are harder to practice otherwise. So, to summarize, I think those are the two areas where I see most potential for leadership transformation powered by...
technologies such as VR.
Jiani (13:11)
That's beautiful. And you've touched upon a lot of topics that let's kind of unfold like one by one. And you talk about the idea of safety. And what do you think the role safety play in terms of like transformative leadership development?
Thomas De Bruyne (13:35)
Yeah, safety brings us very close to the essence of what all of this is about, I believe. That in our current systems of work, having lived it myself for several years, safety is a very hard thing to come by. And you can get lucky when you're landing in a team where there's a very aware leader who intentionally crafts an environment where...
Everyone is invited and free to speak up their minds, regardless of hierarchy, and where people feel safe and valued and where there is a constructive work environment. But those environments, in my experience, at least they're quite the exception. They exist, but most of them people always have like a certain safety buffer where they don't feel as safe of being their authentic selves and feeling they have to fulfill bigger shoes.
then they feel comfortable of filling. Imposter syndrome is rampant, especially within high achievers. And all of those manifestations are just hints that there is a lot of work to be done on psychological safety. So it relates back to both technology and transformative leadership. Because if you want to be successful as a leader and get the best out of your people
want to bring out the best of themselves. And then that requires a lot of capabilities and awareness to instill that kind of environment. Technology can also help you create that in an isolated setting like we were talking about with social emotional intelligence. If you don't feel comfortable, let's say messing up a conversation that includes some vulnerability with an employee of yours, because you haven't...
gone there many times before, you can practice in virtual reality. Mess up as many times as you would like and offend the avatar. No one but the virtual avatar will care. And in that sense you create a little bit of a safety buffer in case you wouldn't feel safe enough to potentially offend someone or to be clumsy in a conversation and where people wouldn't have the trust or the safety to respond well to someone.
being clumsy with them. So in that sense, technology can be for a little bit of those side consequences of the lack of psychological safety, and it can also help us improve it.
Jiani (16:11)
That's beautiful. And you also mentioned about the idea of like curiosity. Do you think safety is somehow related to the ability to foster curiosity, childlike wonder? Are they related or you think that kind of comes from somewhere else?
Thomas De Bruyne (16:33)
If we go back to the nature of feeling unsafe, I would argue a lot of that comes from the fear of being judged and from a skeptical work environment.
And those two traits I find are very prevalent in a lot of businesses, because people have been taught that you need to be skeptical of new ideas, like a risk management approach, or their fear-based mechanisms, just to make sure that you do make the right decision. But I don't believe that they are the most helpful mechanisms. And those are the ones that, in my experience, stand most in the way of...
tapping into this childlike wonder or curiosity. Because the moment you feel like you might potentially be judged, it's really hard to just be in wonder like a child. Because a child with supportive parents and a supportive environment, wonder is our natural state. We wonder about the clouds in the sky, we wonder about why is the sky blue and not green and...
when you feel like you might be able, you might be judged for asking even a simple question like this or something that should be obvious to you, the wonder kind of disappears. So I think it's not a matter of instilling more wonder because we all have it. It's our natural tendency, our natural state to be in. It's more of focusing in what are those things in our environment that keep us from tapping into that natural state.
What are those fears and insecurities that we have embedded into our systems? And I really believe by addressing those and fostering a culture where there is more safety and acceptance and, um, such environments, we just stimulate wonder because that would just naturally pop up.
Yeah, I would even say it's more about unlocking or uplifting human potential because potential is already present. It just needs to find, like, to open up a funnel of just being allowed more.
And if you look at like very young children, I have the privilege and the pleasure of having a two year old at home. You can see his first creation up lion. Yeah, he learns so quickly and any parents will relate or anyone having a child in their lives can relate that they're full of wonder, full of curiosity. They learn, they fail, they learn. And failure is learning in itself. Like there is no such thing as shameful failure.
And so I believe it's again, just coming back to an environment where this natural tendency of humans is not being blocked or restricted. So how do we open up the capacity to learn again in our current work systems? Because as the context we're talking about, I would say it's less about managing and adding another learning management system with
extended admin privileges and data insights, although those are helpful to a certain extent, at the very core of the philosophy of learning practices within an organization. It's about trusting your employees that, given the right story, the vision, the story that resonates with them enough so that they voluntarily choose to be a part of your company and help to work towards that vision, they will naturally understand what is it that...
is next for me to learn so that I can be even more effective and helpful to contribute to this vision from my own potential, from my own talents. And of course you need like a supportive infrastructure. Organizations can put a lot of resources into learning platforms where you have customization, where you have data insights to make sure that you get linked up with the most relevant content.
as long as it doesn't become like a management approach where you're like, okay, this is the role we assigned to you. And because of that, we figured out that this is the learning path that is the most suitable to you. So now that's what you'll have to do on top of all the time that we already expect you to be working on a client focused project to bring in revenue. Honestly, that's how most of the learning works, right? And that's like more of a managerial approach to learning. Instead of that, you can let go a little bit more.
I have a very clear story, an opportunity-based narrative for an organization, which propels people in buying into a vision and then trusting that people will naturally identify what is it that I can learn with the help of my company's resources that can help me become more effective in contributing towards this company.
Jiani (21:31)
That's beautiful. So it really boils down to removing all the hurdles, removing all the man-made structure, just to let them be.
Thomas De Bruyne (21:37)
pretty much.
I would say that, yes, I would say it's like a mix. If you put it like this, it's like a mix of servant leadership coming from the L&D team and HR, a mix of servant leadership and inspirational, transformational, charismatic leadership. Because you want to get people passionate about a certain goal because if there's no direction you will get lost in all the learning opportunities and you'll get a very disjointed organization.
But then once you've got that clear, and you've got people behind you who can rally to the cause, then providing them with supportive infrastructure and learning opportunities and time and a culture where it's expected to learn. That's what you said, removing the obstacles and the hurdles and becoming more of a servant leader to allow people with the best possible learning experience.
Jiani (22:31)
And how do you think would biometrics be applied to the development of transformative leadership? Will there be possibilities of getting people's bio data during the training in the virtual environment to help maybe prompt them? How do you see that possibility?
Thomas De Bruyne (22:57)
During my time at Deloitte, we were investing in a new program for senior leaders to expand into a more transformative form of leadership. One of the elements we included was a biofeedback program. We worked together with our Neuroscience Institute in Germany. We included the help of a beautiful lady, Kathrin Rueckert, who developed this biofeedback program, which is called BRAVO.
and we were about to integrate this in our leadership programs just because stress is the biggest limitation any leader is facing right now. Like a lot of leaders realize what needs to be done, they realize what unhealthy behaviors are happening in the workplace, but then it's just like this constant threat race dynamic, the constant stress levels.
that lets you realize certain things, but it doesn't let you embody it further down the neck, because we're just stuck in our rational thinking. And until we take conscious time and use powerful techniques like the Bravo Biofeedback Program of Catherine Couture to let people reconnect with their whole bodies, reset their stress responses, reframe stressors into opportunities.
then we will never reach the foundational impacts and transformations that we aspire to have. So just working through stress, reconnecting with our bodies, taking time to breathe, to reflect and zoom out and to reimagine that things can be done differently.
Stress is like the number one issue that we should be tackling. And bio data, biofeedback can be a really powerful tool for people because it helps you with feeling more into your own body, especially if you've been disconnected from it for a very long time. You're not used to listening to your body. It's even hard to reconnect to your heartbeat and your gut feel. And in the initial stages, biofeedback tools can really help you.
the additional benefit that a lot of leaders are still data driven and analytical in mind.
just the numbers which show you what condition your body is in. It's typically a really good wake-up call for people, especially when you're on the worst side of the health spectrum, where a lot of people I've seen realize that, oh, I'm actually in burnout and I didn't realize it, but my brainwaves and my heart rates are actually showing that I am on the clinical side of burnout or depression. And people never stopped
to realize further it and then they crash at some later point but biofeedback is also a highly analytical tool which resonates well with leaders.
Jiani (25:56)
I really love that. I think it would be great that we have this biometric devices or whatever sensors that can always help us in check. Just like when we were in the room, we wanted to check the temperature, the humidity, and then we know when to turn on a humidifier. So in terms of our body as leaders and people who are being led, having that parameter to tell them, okay, this is, drink some water or take a walk out or something like that,
Thomas De Bruyne (26:23)
Mm-hmm.
Jiani (26:26)
you've been going through some stressing time, just take things a little bit slow, step into your power more, and if there's communication challenges or maybe a strong deadline, maybe it's time for you to renegotiate with whatever stakeholders are in the conversation to see if there's any better way to move forward without burning everybody in the short term, so they can go long term.
Thomas De Bruyne (26:51)
Mm-hmm.
Jiani (26:55)
Beautiful, beautiful.
when they are the ultimate stakeholder, there could be
ultimate deadline or ultimate non-negotiable outcome people need to reach. How do we potentially, I wouldn't like to use the word balance. It feels like it's too like a, it's like in confliction. I would choose to use the word harmonize. So how would we potentially harmonize the new realm of transformative leadership?
Thomas De Bruyne (27:16)
Hehehe.
Jiani (27:27)
into the ability to actually accomplish a non-negotiable outcome and how do we harmonize those dimensions into one.
Thomas De Bruyne (27:33)
Mm.
Yeah, yeah, great, great question. I would say there is a long-term perspective and a short-term perspective response to this. The shorter in which most of us are faced with every day is that, okay, some things we just don't have for the choosing, we have to operate within the limits and boundaries, and I believe that's actually a great thing.
giving you a practical example, I was speaking at the lead character designer of Pixar Studios at a conference. So she is designing all these characters in the animated movies of Pixar, and she said that, you know, I love boundaries because she got a question from the audience. Everything was about creativity and igniting your spark. And someone asked her a very similar
if you don't have creativity and you have a deadline for developing this character for this movie by the next week. And she's like, you know, I have no choice. I work for this company. And when this character needs to be finished, that's what needs to be done. So having creativity or not, that's not an option. And in her response, you can just tell that this boundary actually helps her to ignite the creativity out of a need.
boundaries and you cannot choose everything yourself. What you can create is all the space within the boundaries you have and get as creative as possible to operate within those limitations. So I would say that's the short-term response to this and the long-term response.
I believe we're all just here as humans seeking our truths together and evolving our truths together. And yes, a CEO might have more influence than a new joiner or an intern. Yes, a shareholder might even have more influence than a CEO depending on the corporate structure. But in the end, no one has like the ultimate truth and everyone wants to have some level of success. And the matter is to
And again pointing towards the transformative leadership and the expanding sense of self and consciousness. The more we start to embed the success of not just shareholders or even not just companies and its employees or the stakeholders, but also the planet and natural life in our universe. The more healthy limits and boundaries and incentives and requirements we will create.
So in the long term, it would just be my advice, have those vulnerable, courageous conversations wherever you are in any company to open up those debates, this discourse to come to a more encompassing truth that serves more people. And I would bet it also will make your company more successful.
Jiani (30:47)
That's beautiful. Thank you, Thomas. And let me kind of do a recap for our audience. So, so far, we've talked about the story of Thomas and how Thomas decided to focus on virtual reality as the current technology form to empower the new concept of transformative leadership, the type of leadership that's not only
serve as a servant but also serve from the higher purpose, the aspirational leader, and people who are able to inspire people. And we talked about the concept of safety, psychological safety, how psychological safety can potentially curate, I would hear Noah in the background, I would say Noah from here, how we can potentially curate a safe...
Thomas De Bruyne (31:30)
Hey.
Jiani (31:35)
a psychologically safe environment for people to activate their childlike wonder in a very disciplined within a boundary space. And we also talk about some new technologies and how new technology like biometrics can be a good parameter, an indicator to help us spot burnout and anxiety and stress early on and how that can play into a bigger picture
um uh talents and um i think i think i hope i got a good uh summary am i missing anything
Thomas De Bruyne (32:13)
Drop mic.
All you need to do is drop the mic. That was the best summary I could possibly imagine.
Jiani (32:26)
That's beautiful. So now let's talk about magic. And when you were 11 years old, what did you enjoy doing that time disappeared or playing or creating?
Thomas De Bruyne (32:40)
Oh, yeah, two things. I loved singing, playing music. I think I was singing more than I was speaking back then. And it just came very natural to me.
And I also was reading so much. I remember a moment when I was sitting on the playground in primary school and the bell rang for like announcing the end of playtime. Everyone went back to their class and someone had to actually come and get me because I was so lost in my book. I didn't notice the playground was empty. And I think it was Harry Potter that I was reading. Back then it just came out. Harry Potter had the same age as I had.
Jiani (33:13)
I'm sorry.
Thomas De Bruyne (33:21)
back then, 11 years old, the first book. And I was just so immersed in this world of magic that, yeah, reading transported me to different realms. So singing, music, reading, that was pretty much my life when I was 11 years old.
Jiani (33:41)
That's beautiful. And I think sound and music has this empowered way of making us feel safe and feel heard, feel seen and feel inspired.
We actually have some guests who is going to talk about the power of music. So it will be an interesting conversation to build upon our current conversation. That's wonderful. Were there any particular challenges that has made who you are today?
Thomas De Bruyne (34:05)
Awesome.
Absolutely. I believe the most powerful growth comes from the deepest challenges you have. And the first big one that I encountered was when I was 14 years old. And my parents went through a rough divorce. I have a younger brother and sister.
So me being the eldest one in the family, I also took a lot of emotional responsibility upon myself, navigating the whole divorce, and I think looking back on it, I feel like I just matured much more quickly because of it. And also learned, like...
what the concepts of responsibility and courage are in real life. Because coming back to my father, who I didn't have any contact with for seven years, upon my own initiative, as like a protection mechanism in the midst of everything that was going on, re-initiating that contact after seven years when I was 21, that was one of the most courageous things I felt I ever did. It was very scary.
very scary to open up that whole part again. But I also grew so much through that. And especially having become a father myself recently.
that's just amplifying all of the learnings. The parents and the father that I want to be, that I don't want to be, from my own perspective and from the stories that I've heard from friends and loved ones. I would say that parenthood is definitely challenging, and it's the most loving, gratifying challenge you'll ever get. So through that challenge and the tensions and
Jiani (36:06)
Yeah.
Thomas De Bruyne (36:14)
Yeah, that has led me to the most beautiful growth that I've witnessed so far.
Jiani (36:21)
That's beautiful. So, what do you think is your magic? For now.
Thomas De Bruyne (36:27)
My magic. I would say that I've retained a good fair share of my childlike wonder throughout life and that's definitely a part of my magic. I think also an excitement and a passion about a beautiful future where we can allow ourselves to be even more human.
I have a very strong belief that we are heading towards this, even though the current geopolitical evolutions in our world are showing us a different story. I just have a very solid belief that eventually we're moving towards a state of humankind that's more connected.
the last part of my magic. I think when I had the freedom to come up with my own function title, my own job title at Deloitte, I called myself Connector for Innovation. And I believe that's also where my magic is because I get excited about the future and innovations. But what I enjoy doing most is connect people with each other to unlock the magic and connect the dots and achieve something that wasn't able.
to be achieved before.
Jiani (37:51)
So beautiful. And I like how you connect people as the ultimate goal. Sometimes when we're talking about technology, it's easy for us to just forget the bigger picture and start digging into the details of the technology. So I really appreciate that you are opening up the perceptions for everybody that's out there and seeing the bigger picture and seeing the bigger
more optimistic, collectively flourishing future that we are inevitably heading toward, despite all the challenges that the world faces. So thank you very much, Thomas, for sharing your time and sharing your perspective, your wisdom, your experiences and your magic with us.
Thomas De Bruyne (38:35)
Mm-hmm.
Thank you so much Jiani it's been a pleasure sharing this piece with you. Thank you so much.
Jiani (38:54)
Thank you, Thomas.
Thomas De Bruyne (38:58)
Hehehe
