The New Age of Immersive Learning: Igniting Curiosity in Digital Realms | Michael Owen + Robin White Owen
📑 Chapters
00:00 Introduction and Background
01:10 The Origin of Media Combo
05:42 Technologies for MuseumsCultural Institutions
10:43 Exploring Emerging Technologies
15:17 Enhancing Experiences through Virtual Reality
26:30 Measuring Impact of Immersive Environments
29:00 Emotional Connection of Immersive Learning
30:10 Immersive Experiences and Engagement
31:00 Virtual Reality as a Simulation Training Tool
32:39 Role of Infrastructure & Content VR Adoption
33:37 Maintenance Challenges in VR Implementation
35:13 Curiosity and Effective Learning Experiences
37:23 Potential Role of AI in Immersive Environments
40:04 Recommended Innovators and Startups
41:14 The Guest’s Magic and Closing Remarks
💕 Story Overview
In S4E01 of @MAGICademy Podcast, we dive deep into digital storytelling with @Michael Owen and @Robin White Owen. With over 40 years of experience, they share insights on leveraging emerging technologies to create engaging experiences for museums and cultural institutions.
Learn about their innovative approach to digital storytelling, the power of visual thinking strategies, and how they're using virtual reality to enhance empathy and communication skills in healthcare education.
Key Takeaways
Importance of Emotional Hooks: Creating engaging digital experiences relies heavily on finding emotional hooks that draw users into the content, making it more memorable and impactful.
Importance of VTS Application: Visual Thinking Strategies (VTS) are a powerful tool for developing critical thinking, communication, and empathy skills, particularly in medical education.
Impact of VR Training: Studies show VR training offers significant benefits, including improved confidence, faster learning, and stronger emotional connections to content compared to traditional methods.
AI Potential: The future may see AI playing a role in simulating group discussions and facilitators in VR learning experiences, though current limitations need to be addressed.
Balancing Guidance and Freedom: Effective user experience design in immersive environments should provide a balance between guiding participants and allowing them the freedom to explore, enhancing their learning journey.
Democratizing Learning Through Art: Innovative projects like VITALS use art to foster empathy and communication skills among students, allowing diverse perspectives to emerge without the constraints of traditional art education.
What is Michael’s Magic? ✨
Michael's magic is "creation"—the ability to combine various elements to craft compelling audiovisual communications.
What is Robin’s Magic? ✨
Robin's magic is generosity - sharing knowledge and experiences accumulated over years in the field.
If you would like to stay tuned with our future guests and their magical stories. Welcome to join us.
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González-Argote, J., & Gonzalez-Argote, D. (2022). 10 Best practices in Immersive Learning Design and 10 points of connection with the Metaverse. Metaverse Basic and Applied Research.
Stefaniak, J.E., Bagdy, L.M., & Yang, L. (2023). The Influence of Systems Thinking on Immersive Learning Design Decisions. TechTrends.
Matovu, H., Ungu, D.A., Won, M., Tsai, C., Treagust, D.F., Mocerino, M., & Tasker, R. (2022). Immersive virtual reality for science learning: Design, implementation, and evaluation. Studies in Science Education, 59, 205 - 244.
What does virtual reality and the metaverse mean for training? Retrieved from: https://www.pwc.com/us/en/tech-effect/emerging-tech/virtual-reality-study.html
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Michael and Robin are the dynamic duo behind MediaCombo, a company that has been at the forefront of digital storytelling for over two decades. Their innovative approach combines film, interactive media, and virtual reality to create transformative experiences for museums and educational settings. Together, they are passionate about using technology to foster human connections and enhance learning through art.
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Jiani (00:00)
Welcome to MAGICademy Podcast I'm so excited that we have our guest, Michael and Robin join us today. They have been a business leader and artist who have been leveraging technologies as tools for artists to tell engaging digital stories to make people further engaged in an experience. Welcome Michael and welcome Robin.
Robin (00:26)
Thank you.
Michael Owen (00:26)
Thank you, Jiani
Jiani (00:28)
So, I'm curious, like, can you share with us a story of why MediaCombo
Robin (00:37)
Well, yes. The name MediaCombo comes from our recognition that there are a lot of different kinds of digital tools and we didn't want to specialize in one. We proposed the idea that we can use a combination of media to tell.
the stories that our clients wanted to tell. So that's why we decided to call the company MediaCombo, because we use a combination of media, right? Before MediaCombo, we had another production company for about 20 years together, which was called Owen Electric Pictures. And we've had MediaCombo for 20 years. So we've been doing this for a fairly long time.
Jiani (01:05)
Yeah.
for over 40 years, yes.
Robin (01:27)
Yeah, pretty much, not over, but literally just about. So yeah, and you know, as I intimated there, over this period of time, there have obviously been huge changes in the technology that people use. So when we first began working, well, Michael started out working in film, in fact, was filmmaking that...
Michael Owen (01:31)
Mm-hmm.
Robin (01:54)
really propelled him to want to have a production company and tell stories, you know, digital with film. And for me, the impetus for working together came from the fact that I grew up very near the Metropolitan Museum of Art and used to go there all the time. And so it was kind of like...
the place where I went when I wanted to hang out and just wander through the galleries and look at amazing paintings and sort of inject myself into them. And I've always wanted to try and give other people that same experience, of like joy and...
the inspiration and imagination of what it's like to be in one of those paintings, you know, to be one of the peasants in Bruegel's, you know, painting or to be Madam X or, you know, or to be in a boat in one of Homer's oceans, you know, something like that. Anyway.
So as I said, when we first started, Michael started working with film, but I think most of our early projects were in video. And over time, as the internet came along, we began to work on the web and produce web-based experiences for clients. And then when...
mobile phones came into being, especially the iPhone, we started to produce mobile applications and audio tours. And then we began to produce interactive touch screen applications because that's sort of the combination of web technology, but in a self-contained installation.
And then, you know, when more immersive technologies came along, we started working, for example, with persistent AR in 2016, and then began to work with different types of virtual reality, from 360 videos to sort of Google Street View type tours.
to fully immersive CGI room scale experiences. And the thing that unites all of the work that we've done is the fact that it's almost always been for museums, cultural institutions or educational institutions. And so the plan was to take these different technologies, whatever suited the purpose of the client to tell the stories they wanted to tell. So we were almost always working with
curators, with educators, a lot of times with visitor, you know, visitor study, visitor people and marketing people at museums, to help them expand, enhance and tell their stories to inspire the people who come to museums, whether it's on site or online, with the stories that the museums wanna tell because,
Jiani (04:51)
Hmm.
Robin (05:10)
We both really have a strong feeling that, you know, the humanities, language, writing, drawing, painting, sculpture, designing, are the way that human beings have always expressed the things that are most important to us.
from every culture, Western Europe, African cultures, South American cultures, Asian cultures. And so those stories that are expressed through all these different media are incredibly inspiring, affirming.
and encouraging in many ways. And we've used digital technologies to try to help curators, etc., to tell those stories in ways that make people inspired. It's kind of a long-winded way of saying things.
Jiani (06:08)
Yeah, that's beautiful because I think the human experience is the most important experience and as we move into the technology will never stop, it's gonna always evolve and develop and change but ultimately everyone is having a human experience no matter where they are, what they do. So...
I definitely resonate and our audience definitely resonate with you on that as well. Excellent. So Michael, do you have anything to add to the origin story?
Michael Owen (06:49)
Um, not really. I mean, film was the, definitely the, the work world that, you know, one grew up in. Uh, I went to university in England and I had a job as an assistant film editor in London, but I didn't think my prospects in England were that great. So I, I grew up in New York city. So I wanted to come back home.
Robin (06:49)
No, not really.
the work world that one grew up in. I went to university in England and I
film editor in London, but I didn't think my prospects in England were that great. I grew up in New York City, so I wanted to come back home. And one of the things I did while I was looking for work was volunteer at Manhattan Cable TV's Public Access Department. And that's where I met a group of people who became lifelong friends to this day. All of whom were involved,
Michael Owen (07:18)
And one of the things I did while I was looking for work was volunteer at Manhattan Cable TV's Public Access Department. And that's where I met a group of people who became lifelong friends to this day, all of whom were involved. Most of them were interns because they still were at university. Some of them had jobs working at Public Access and I was a volunteer. But we
We all believed in this idea of using video tech to democratize what at the time was highly centralized. There were four TV channels and that was how you got your news. And the idea was with video in the hands of ordinary people, they can start using video to tell their own stories. And we actually went and would take the equipment.
Robin (08:07)
they can start using video to tell our own stories. And we actually went and would take the equipment. We borrowed it at night and went to a club called CBG's and take bands, playing there, including a lot of what would become successful bands at night. So this was this idea that you had this medium that you could do all this cool stuff with, even though it was not ready for broadcast,
Jiani (08:07)
Mm.
Hmm.
Michael Owen (08:14)
we borrowed it at night and went to a club called CBGBs and tape bands playing there, including a lot of what would become successful bands at night. So this was this idea that you had this medium that you could do all of this cool stuff with, even though it was not ready for broadcast, it was not ready for professional level applications at that time. And if you think about it, what was happening
Robin (08:37)
professional level applications at that time. And if you think about it, what was happening with public access or the dream of public access in 1975, 76, wouldn't be realized until YouTube came out in the early 2000s, effectively. That's what it required to make it truly demographic. You have a little camera in front of you and you can
Jiani (08:41)
Hmm.
Michael Owen (08:43)
with public access or the dream of public access in 1975, 76, wouldn't be realized until YouTube came out in the early 2000s, effectively. You know, I mean, that's what it required to make it truly democratic. You have a little camera in front of you, and you can now tell your message because the, well, the logistics of, yes, you could.
Jiani (08:50)
Mm.
Robin (09:08)
because the logistics of yes you could with very little money make something in video and put it on cable TV but then you have to get everyone to watch it
Michael Owen (09:11)
with very little money, make something in video and put it on cable TV, but then you had to get everyone to watch it. That's what broadcast channels, you know, they had all the resources to put together entertainment that would attract the eyeballs. But just because there was a channel out there on one of your 100 channels on a cable TV box, didn't mean anyone was gonna watch channel 76. So that's...
Jiani (09:19)
Mmm.
Robin (09:19)
That's what broadcast channels, you know, they have all the resources put together entertainment that would attract the eyeballs. But just because there was a channel out there on one of your hundred channels on a cable TV box didn't mean anyone was going to watch channel 76. So that's where you have this thing of like technology is ahead of the audience. So that was like my starting point.
Jiani (09:37)
Mm-hmm.
Michael Owen (09:40)
where you have this thing of like the technology is ahead of the audiences. So that was like my starting point. I was very interested in technologies that were not quite ready for mass public acceptance. I was interested in interactive laser discs. You know, that was very cool. But again, it would take CD-ROMs before you would have actual people with the way to watch that kind of.
Robin (09:49)
technologies that were not quite ready for mass public acceptance. I was interested in interactive laser discs. You know, that was very cool. But again, it would take CD-ROMs before you would have actual people with a way to watch that kind of programming on a large scale.
Michael Owen (10:09)
programming on a large scale.
Jiani (10:11)
So you're always on the forefront playing with the emerging technology. So basically for people who wanted to see into the future of media and what media can do, you're the one who they should see. So, Oh, what Michael is playing right now? Oh, okay. That's coming. That's a very reliable indicator. That's fantastic. So, um,
Michael Owen (10:14)
Sure. Yeah.
Yeah.
Robin (10:36)
Exactly.
Jiani (10:40)
So that gets me interested. So MediaCombo and can you share with us some like cases that you are currently working on that showcasing you know the philosophy the strategy and in particular based on your experiences in the you know in the past and forthcoming what are some key elements that
determines like make or break an engaging digital experience.
Robin (11:16)
Well, I think that.
The thing that you have to have is some kind of a content hook. You have to have a way for people who are going to be participating by watching, listening, interacting, whatever. You have to have a way for them to get into the content. So what we try to do is to work with our clients to...
to get them to think a little bit outside of the box, outside of their expertise, outside of their perspective, outside of the curatorial perspective, outside of the educational perspective, to think about what would a person who's not an expert want to know about this? Why would they care about this? Where's the, and basically it's like, where's the emotion in this object or in this story that you wanna tell? And let's get to that, and that's what will draw people
And so I think that's really the very first thing that you have to try to describe. And from there...
developing a user experience that provides sort of the right balance between guiding the visitor and giving them the freedom to explore whatever it is. And that would be true, obviously that's not true for a linear video, you know, but it's true for a mobile app, it's true for an interactive on a touch screen, it's true for
really, you know, these huge immersive projection-based experiences that are, you know, that are happening all over the place now. You know, from Meow Wolf to Van Gogh.
Jiani (13:11)
Mm.
Robin (13:14)
They're ubiquitous, really. So I think those things. I think great audio is another significant factor that you really need to have, because that helps you feel a sense of immersion. It gives you more than one sense. It's not necessarily multi-sensory, but it gives you an additional sense through which to experience whatever the content is. And then, obviously, of course, great visuals, unless it's not a visual project, in which case the audio is even more important.
Jiani (13:38)
Mm.
Thank you.
Robin (13:45)
Um, so if I had to like just say for those are the four things, you know, finding the emotional hook, then the UX design that gives you this balance between guidance and freedom, great audio, great visuals, and, and you don't necessarily have to have a narrative arc, you know, but, um, it helps. Um,
Jiani (13:56)
Hmm
I don't really know.
Robin (14:12)
so that there's a path that people can follow.
Jiani (14:20)
Excellent. So out of all these projects and pieces that you've worked on, what's the new project that you are designing that actually taps into enhancing our human experiences such as empathy, connection, communication, diversity, inclusion?
about your cylinder box this project.
Michael Owen (14:50)
Well, we are developing what would be as much a sort of platform as an application that would, that will attempt to or will enable, it's aimed right now at
Robin (14:58)
the platform as an application that will attempt to or will enable
It's aimed right now at medical professional students, but it could be secondary school students, and it could also be professionals, you know, not related, I mean, just professional development. Because what we are trying to do is take a pedagogy that you're familiar with, because you interviewed the.
Michael Owen (15:19)
medical profession students, but it could be secondary school students and it could also be professions, you know, not related, I mean just professional development. Because what we are trying to do is take a pedagogy that you're familiar with because you interviewed the Don of this virtual thinking strategies, visual thinking strategies.
Robin (15:42)
of this virtual community strategies. Visual. Visual thinking strategies. Philip, you know, we want to be able to take that.
Michael Owen (15:48)
Philip Yenowen, we want to be able to take that pedagogy and put it in a virtual medium that will be more accessible and scalable. So we're building an environment and that can bring together a facilitator.
and students or professionals into a virtual gallery space and conduct, look at the artworks and engage through the engagement with the art, develop their close-looking skills, their critical thinking and communication skills, and then through that the empathy of understanding that multiple people can have different opinions about the same thing.
Robin (16:37)
different opinions about the same thing. And so that is a project that we're working on both in terms of the technical challenges of creating, having spaces that can manage that. And then also basically.
Michael Owen (16:41)
And so that is a project that we're working on both in terms of the technical challenges of creating, of having spaces that can manage that. And then also basically getting the funding to do real surveys with real students over a period of time that would let us measure whether
Robin (16:59)
getting the funding to do real surveys with real students over a period of time that would let us measure whether this can be done successfully in a virtual reality. So that's the big project that we're working on at this moment to get off the grounds of this year's survey, I believe, next year.
Michael Owen (17:11)
this can be done successfully in virtual reality. So that's the big project we're working on at this moment and hope to get off the grounds, if not this year, certainly beginning the next year.
Robin (17:25)
It's called VITALS, which stands for Visual Thinking and Learning Strategies. And the idea is that, as Michael said, you know, we are using art museums to...
virtual recreations of art museum galleries and bringing students from different disciplines at the moment anyway, it's aimed at students from different medical disciplines. So a sort of interprofessional group of healthcare students to work with a facilitator undertaking these visual thinking strategies sessions of looking at art and discussing them.
That's the plan. We did a pilot, actually, with six students from the University of Miami Miller School of Medicine and the UM School of Nursing and General Studies and the Low Art Museum. So we're partnering with those three.
Michael Owen (18:29)
nursing and health.
Robin (18:38)
institutions to develop this project and see if we can make it viable in VR. And you know art is a really great topic for discussion because
you because the content of paintings also when you're asking people to look at what's going on and to talk about what's going on they have to put themselves into the painting they have to put themselves into the role of the people who are in the painting and then they have to begin to empathize with those people so they not only learn you know
they not only sort of extend themselves empathically into the roles of the people that might be in the painting, but as you said earlier, Michael, listening to other people give their perspective about what's going on in a painting adds to their understanding that
they themselves that may have a particular bias based on their own interpretation of what's happening and other people have other valid, equally valid views on things. And so it helps to develop respect among people for divergent views. It helps build team coalitions and all of these things are really important in healthcare.
it helps to promote communication basically. Because, and one of the...
Michael Owen (20:15)
I mean.
Robin (20:20)
One of the amazing things is that 40% of deaths in the United States are due to lack of communication between healthcare professionals. So this kind of training is essential, and actually people in the healthcare profession totally get that. And this method has been shown to be very helpful for students in real life. And so we're hoping to replicate that in VR.
Michael Owen (20:51)
The other thing that I really like about it is that it, and this is not the VR that does this, it's the pedagogy, it's the visual thinking strategies, is it democratizes the process of looking at art. You're not telling anybody.
Robin (20:53)
is that it, and this is not the VR that does this, it's the pedicab, it's the visual thinking strategies, is it democratizes the process of looking at art. Yeah. You're not telling anybody why you're looking.
Michael Owen (21:09)
why you're looking at this painting. You're not saying who the artist is, you're not saying when it was made, and you're not talking about the circumstances of its creation. You're simply asking people, what is it that you think is going on in this image? And in telling that story, they're empowered to bring their experience to bear in parsing what the image is. And that...
Robin (21:11)
You're not saying who the artist is, you're not saying what it's made of, you're not talking about the circumstances of his creation. You're simply asking people, what is it that you think is going on in this painting? And in telling that story, they're empowered to bring their experience to bear in parsing what the image is. And that completely changes their relationships.
Jiani (21:26)
Mm.
Michael Owen (21:37)
completely changes their relationship to the artwork from the classical process of going to a museum that everything has to have been curated and is special and we should have some understanding of why it was all assembled. You're reversing that. So we've done not in the current thing, but we've done because we've been trying to see how to make this work in virtual reality settings. And what the value is, is we did this with a group of
Robin (21:40)
to the artwork from the classical process of going to a museum that everything has been curated and special and we should have some understanding why it was all assembled. You're reversing that. So we've done, not in the current thing, but we've done because we've been trying to see how to make this work in virtual reality settings and what the value is. As we did this with a group of kids on a Cherokee reservation who went home,
Michael Owen (22:06)
kids on a Cherokee reservation in Oklahoma who had never been to a museum that they just have not been to one. And so they land in this little VR world that again it's not fancy it was just white walls literally like a gallery and a series of very diverse but interesting paintings. And they just very quickly completely got into it. They were you know because again we were asking them what they think.
Robin (22:27)
And they just very quickly, completely got into it. They were, you know, because again, we were asking them what they think is happening. And they were very perceptive. And you know, it just very quickly joined in and is a great exchange. Because as you said, there's no judgment. There's no wrong answer here. And so it does level the playing field. It's not about art history at all.
Michael Owen (22:36)
is happening and they were very perceptive and you know that very quickly joined in and it was a great experience.
Jiani (22:45)
everyone.
Robin (22:57)
Anyway, that's.
Jiani (22:59)
Yeah, I wanted to bring our audience up to the context of what we've been talking about, the visual thinking strategy. It's developed by Philip and his partner. Visual thinking strategy constitutes a very simple three-step question. And the first question is, what do you think is, so we look at the piece of art, what do you think is going on in this picture?
Robin (23:20)
What's going on in this picture?
Michael Owen (23:22)
Yeah, yeah.
Jiani (23:25)
The next question is, what did you see that makes you say that? So you're providing evidence, you can point out whichever thing that you see in the painting, that's, of course, your statement. And then we continue this cycle and say, oh, what else can you find? And then there's a facilitator who's guiding this conversation. So to use this strategy of learning, facilitating and
Robin (23:29)
Yes.
Jiani (23:53)
I would say diversity focus or non-judgment communication and develop much better strategy, much better skills to see what's going on, especially in healthcare because healthcare is in the industry where of course you have the hard skills of doing operations, reanalysis, data, communication, or mixed with the rest of the skills for medical field. So.
Michael Owen (24:22)
Yeah, our partner, the Dean in Nursing Department, who is one of the co-PIs on this project with the NIH, she calls them essential non-technical skills. I mean, doctors have to have them. And not just doctors, but the nurses and the physical therapists and the x-ray guys. I mean, everybody.
Robin (24:36)
I mean, doctors have to have, not just doctors, but nurses and the physical therapists and x-ray guys. I mean, everybody has to understand how to look at the patient and then be able to communicate what they're saying. And other people call them, sorry, and other people call them power skills. They have a lot of different names, right? So yeah, they're important. Yeah.
Jiani (24:36)
Peace.
Michael Owen (24:46)
has to understand how to look at the patient and then be able to communicate what they're saying to other people on the team.
Jiani (24:58)
How is this?
Michael Owen (25:00)
Yeah.
Jiani (25:02)
Yeah, I like that. Yeah, I think, I think non-technical, I think I like the power skill much better. I think there's an evolving trend where people see those skills as more of a power skill because that's what makes a difference, you know, within human experiences and that's kind of make or break the team dynamic or the relationship between healthcare workers and the
Michael Owen (25:11)
Mm-hmm.
Robin (25:13)
more and more.
Yeah.
And so far...
Jiani (25:31)
And also be able to stay accurate. If this is a tag, you also have to be accurate. So if this is a tag.
Robin (25:36)
Yeah. So far, these skills have not been mastered by artificial intelligence yet. So there's still the human component of things that really needs to be there every time, every time.
Jiani (25:57)
Yeah, that just makes you curious. So how do you exactly measure the impact of an immersive environment like this?
Robin (26:05)
So, you know, there are a lot of studies have been done, and God, more and more, I mean, it's amazing. Technical studies that are being funded by the NIH, for example, the National Institutes of Health, by the Department of Education, by many, many government agencies, looking at the efficiencies that can be accomplished by training in virtual reality.
And you know, they take time to do, because obviously if you're measuring someone starting from here and ending up, you know, here, it takes time. You have to have, it's usually more than one session that really allows you to learn enough of what you've been doing. But it's quite interesting because there's one study.
that was not done for our government agency, but was done by the firm Pric And they did a 10-month study about three and a half years ago, and they were actually testing the potential of teaching soft skills, a certain component of what they call soft skills or interpersonal skills, power skills, you know, to middle managers.
Jiani (27:10)
Mm.
skills.
Robin (27:30)
in different companies. And what they found was that they compared people in VR headsets to people on Zoom, to people doing, I think it was just plain old video,
Paper, yeah, right, right. And what they discovered was that the people in VR ended up being 275% more confident to act on what they had learned after training in VR than in the other modalities, that they learned four times faster than classroom training on average, that they were four times more focused than online learners.
And they were 3.75 times more emotionally connected to the content than the classroom learners working with just paper. So those are really massive statistics. And there are very explicable or very clear reasons for why those stats,
exist. And a lot of it has to do with the fact that when you're in an immersive space, you're not distracted by whatever else is going on around you in the environment.
When you're not on a Zoom call like we are, you don't have, and not that we have this yet, but if we stayed on for longer, Zoom fatigue, right? You're not sort of suffering from that. And when you're in an immersive experience, and especially actually either whether you're with or not with other people, you feel like you're there. You're really there. There's this thing called presence, right?
Jiani (29:20)
Yeah.
Robin (29:38)
So you have much more of an emotional engagement. You feel physically there. So the connection between mind, body, and emotions is pretty tight. And so you ultimately have more of an emotional connection to what's happening, and you're more engaged. And consequently, you're learning more. Not necessarily facts, but
but how to behave behavior that's what we're talking that's what's called soft skills are about behavior
Michael Owen (30:10)
You have a muscle memory from feeling like you were physically in even if you're sitting down and you're just Moving your hands to teleport around the space I mean you come away you take your headset off and in your mind you Remember like you were in a place with other people you don't have that at the end of a zoom call You never you know, you never get that real feeling of having participated in
Robin (30:28)
with other people. You don't have that at the end of the loophole. No, you never get that real unless you're really in the unless in real life. Yeah. And that is the real thing. It's very hard to convey to people. Yeah.
Michael Owen (30:39)
in a real experience. And that is the real thing that's very hard to convey to people about the power of virtual reality. Because it's just used really for gaming, and for the most part in terms of popular people. More and more it's absolutely being embraced as a simulation training tool. I mean, all industries. I mean,
Robin (30:51)
You know, it's just used really for gaming, you know, and the most part in terms of popular people. More and more, it's absolutely being embraced as a simulation training tool. I mean, all industries. I mean, and one of the reasons that we feel.
Michael Owen (31:09)
And one of the reasons that we feel that health care educational institutions are a good market for this curriculum is that it's not about buying the equipment. They all own VR headsets because they're already using it to practice medical procedures or learn anatomy. There's a huge amount of technical training
Robin (31:13)
that health care educational institutions are a good market for this curriculum is that it's not about buying the equipment. They all own VR headsets because they're already using it to practice medical procedures or learn anatomy.
There's a huge amount of technical training materials that have been produced in this field. So you're not talking to an institution about buying equipment to train something new. It's just saying, we propose you use some of those headsets for a different purpose. It's just allocating their usage, but it's not buying equipment
Michael Owen (31:38)
materials that have been produced in this field. So you're not talking to an institution about buying equipment to train something new. It's just saying, we propose you use some of those headsets for a different purpose. It's just allocating their usage. But it's not buying equipment or the whole process, the infrastructure to maintain it. They already have that in place.
Jiani (32:06)
And once the infrastructure is being placed, we usually, the next step is the content, the screen. So what else can I use to do, you know? Things like that.
Michael Owen (32:15)
Right. Yeah, and that's why in secondary schools, even schools that received gifts of like 100 headsets from Metta a few years ago, it was very hard for them to, you know, who's going to run it? I mean, the actual classroom teachers are too busy just trying to stay on top of their students. It has to be either an IT department, if the school even has one.
Robin (32:25)
and
It was very hard for them to, you know, who's going to run it. I mean, the actual classroom teachers are too busy just trying to stay on top of their students. It has to be either an IT department at the school even has one or the library. Those are the two typical departments that would be responsible for voting out, you know, VR headsets. And you have all the issues of sanitation. You've got to keep them clean.
Michael Owen (32:44)
or the library. Those are the two typical departments that would be responsible for loaning out VR headsets. And you have all the issues of sanitation. You've got to keep them clean. You've got to have them plugged in and ready to be powered. You have to have them be able to be connected to a good Wi-Fi connection, or they don't work. So all of these are maintenance issues
Robin (32:59)
you have to plug in and run the power.
or they don't work. So all of these are maintenance issues that come between the actual successful deployment of the technology, even if you haven't let me divide.
Michael Owen (33:15)
the actual successful deployment of the technology, even if you have the money to buy it. So, same thing with museums. We have that all the time. Yes, we'd love to have a little VR experience, but you have to have someone then who is literally, that's their job when visitors come in to make sure that each visitor gets handed a headset that works and that they get to know how to put it on.
Robin (33:20)
So, you know, it's the same thing with museums. You know, we have that all the time. Yes, we'd love to have a little VR experience, but you have to have someone that who's literally, that's their job when visitors come in to make sure that each visitor gets handed a headset that works and they get to know how to put it on and that it needs to be connected to the Wi-Fi, it's gonna work. I mean, all of these things are not just gonna happen.
Michael Owen (33:43)
And that if it needs to be connected to the wifi, it's going to work. I mean, all of these things are not just going to happen. You just don't have a, you know, a headset there that's going to look after itself. You need people to look after it. And so again, it's part of our job. Whenever we're talking to someone about having all of the resources to deliver the technology to their intended audiences.
Robin (33:50)
you don't have a you know, a look after itself. You need again, it's part of our job about having all of the technology to their intended think that um health profession
Michael Owen (34:11)
And that's why we think that health profession schools are the most prepared, you know, a group, a potential market that is ready, you know, to accept.
Robin (34:20)
market that is ready to accept.
Jiani (34:27)
And what role do you think curiosity plays in terms of curating effective learning experiences for medical professionals?
Robin (34:41)
Well, I think, you know, I think again, you're asking, are you asking like, how do you stimulate curiosity? I think you stimulate curiosity by, well, I mean, there's a lot of different ways, you know, I mean, sometimes you can just provide people with an environment and
Jiani (34:51)
Yeah.
Robin (35:11)
And it might, and the environment is designed in a way to stimulate them. Sometimes it's an object that you give in front of them. Sometimes it's a question that you ask. I mean, you know, I wouldn't say there's just one way to inspire curiosity. I mean, I think it's curation. In terms of what we've been describing, the Vitals project, it will be important.
Michael Owen (35:30)
I mean, I think it's curation. And in terms of what we've been describing, the Vitals project, it will be important to select images with the partner institution that are most relevant and provoking for the group of people who are going to be asked to look at it. You don't necessarily wanna challenge them in terms of trying to, but.
Jiani (35:30)
Mm-hmm.
Robin (35:41)
to select images with the partner institution that are most relevant and provoking for the group of people who are going to be asked to look at it. You know, this is a way to challenge them in terms of trying, but at least have something that they'll have an opinion about. And that's with everything. You have to figure out what we'll get,
Michael Owen (35:59)
at least have something that they'll have an opinion about. And that's with everything. You have to figure out what will get, ideally some kind of emotional response. It's an image that will do that. And then you have a conversation about it.
Jiani (36:15)
Hmm
Surface selection, like Robin said, the emotional hook at the beginning. So that could be the curiosity triggering point. So depending on what picture that you select, if it can trigger multiple emotional hooks for different people coming from different backgrounds, then we have a successful start. That's great. What role do you think AI would play in this immersive environment, trying to facilitate power flow?
Robin (36:30)
Yeah. Hmm.
Yeah.
Michael Owen (36:51)
I think the, and it's not something that could be done right away, but I think in the future, for in terms of what we're trying to do, which is this group experience of, you know, because we're simulating real life visual thinking strategies. So that means you need a group of students that can have the
Robin (36:51)
I think the and it's not something that can be done right away but I think in the future. For in terms of what we're trying to do, which is this group experience of, you know, as we're simulating real life visual thinking strategies. So that means you need a group of students that can have the multiple opinions of the
Michael Owen (37:18)
multiple opinions and the range of reactions, as well as a facilitator. So, as I said, I think at the university level, that's something that they can deliver. They have the need and the people and the equipment and to do that. When you're dealing with secondary schools, it's much higher challenge. So maybe you can use AI to
Robin (37:21)
as well as a facilitator. So, um, as I said, I think the university level, that's something that they can deliver. They have the need and the people and the equipment and the, to do that. When you're dealing with secondary schools, it's much higher challenge. Maybe you can use AI to do things like...
Michael Owen (37:47)
do things like simulate the facilitator, so that you can actually, and add a few of non-player characters, so that you could use all of the experiences of real VTS sessions, record them, and the facilitator responses and how they manage. And if you do this enough, you'll build up a language model.
that you can use to train people so that you can make it a single user experience that simulates a group discussion. I don't think it's something that'll happen. I think it'd be useful to try and do it and experiment, but it will take some work to be effective because there's nothing worse. I mean, right now, when you are dealing with AI characters,
Jiani (38:33)
Mm.
Robin (38:40)
When you are dealing with AI characters, there's sometimes a real lag between when you ask a question or say something, and then you get a response. And that's really not conducive to the kind of engagement that we're trying to get. But I think in the future, as things improve, that will be a possibility. A good use of AI.
Michael Owen (38:45)
There's sometimes a real lag between when you ask the question or say something and then you get a response. And that's really not conducive to the kind of engagement that we're trying to get. But I think in the future, as things improve, that will be a possibility.
Jiani (39:02)
Like a quantum computing. Yeah, that's beautiful. Um, so then I'm curious, like, is there, are there any, like, um, like other, um, innovators or startups that you think following, um, that you can, um, guide our audience to kind of continue as a learning, um, about the virtual reality and, um, visual film astrology.
Michael Owen (39:03)
Thank you, Savella.
Robin (39:32)
You know, I can name a few individuals who've given talks that you can find on, you know, on YouTube most likely. Michael, you can chime in, but I mean, so I'm just going to give you some. So for example, there's a brilliant woman called Monica Arez, A-R-E-S, and she's now at Imperial College in London. She is so sort of positive and optimistic and also...
really smart about integrating AI into education. Then there's the Virtual World Society, which is all about bringing people together to use a virtual reality for good, and just a ton of really smart people there.
There's a very smart AI person called Ian Becraft and he has a company called Signal and Ciphers, C-I-P-H-E-R-S. There's a thought leader called Neil Redding, R-E-D-D-I-N-G at Redding Futures, who has a whole philosophy about the interconnectedness of things and how...
we need to really be cognizant of everything that we're doing in order to make sure that we are building the best world that we can. I mean, I'm being a little bit sort of conceptual here, but Neil is pretty specific. He's really good. And I would also recommend a woman called Amy Peck who has a firm called Endeavor VR. Oh, and then...
Oh, yeah. The Stanford Human Interaction Lab is a really interesting place where a lot of...
interesting VR work is being done. So those are some that I can think of. Michael, you maybe add a few more.
Michael Owen (41:29)
You hit the cream.
Robin (41:32)
Yeah, I'm trying to think if there's anybody else.
Jiani (41:33)
Robin has to be very sorrowful. That's great. We have such a great conversation so far. Let me kind of debrief a little bit before we move to the magic part of this conversation. So we've kind of explored the founding stories behind MediaCombo by Michael and Robin. We explored key elements of engaging digital experience.
And we've looked into the current project that we're working on, leveraging visual technology into building a virtual reality-based training environment for medical students and with their hope of having this built as a platform so it can basically scale and help more medical students in the future. And then we also talked about the role of AI and how AI can potentially create non-plear roles.
and visual challenges associated with that. We will talk about curiosity, the importance of curiosity, and Robin also recommend us a few folks that we can follow after our conversation. Wonderful talk. So let's move on and let's talk about the magic part, which is my favorite part, and I hope our audience are excited too. So the first question is, and for both of you, my friend Robin.
So what did you enjoy creating so much that time disappeared when you were around 11 years old? Whoever wants to start first.
Robin (43:11)
You can start Michael.
Jiani (43:13)
Hahaha
Michael Owen (43:13)
Well, you know, my, I've just was always been very interested in imagery. And I know that I was given a camera by my dad who had recently come back from. Japan. And, you know, I didn't do it a lot because there was, you had to buy film and, you know, then have it processed, but I got very hooked on that. I, that process of.
taking pictures and what it is to create images. And I just developed from there. I was at a school that gave me access to super eight film cameras when I was older than 11, but you know.
Robin (43:43)
taking pictures and what it is to create images. And I just developed from there. I was at a school that gave me access to super eight film counts when I was older than 11. But so I was able to develop this skill over time and I was fascinated just with this process
Michael Owen (44:06)
So I was able to sort of develop this skill over time and I was fascinated just with this process of how you make things work. And so that's the magic to me is, I mean, I like putting the parts together. I consider myself a creative producer, which is, you know, actually the bringing the bits together.
Robin (44:13)
make things work. And so that's the magic to me is I mean I like putting the parts together. I consider myself a creative producer which is you know actually the bringing the bits together each with their own little problems and I try and learn you know what are the technical issues or what are the
Michael Owen (44:34)
each with their own little problems. And I try and learn, you know, what are the technical issues or what are the actual execution issues from, you know, I don't know, everything from like, when you look at a location, you wanna know where the sun's going to be at a certain time because you wanna film there when it's gonna look the nicest. You know, all of these are things that you think about when you plan a project that
Robin (44:52)
a certain time because you want to film there when it's going to be with the nicest. You know, all of these are things that you think about when you plan a project, that some require filming, some just require pulling together existing images. You know, the projects are all over the map.
Michael Owen (45:03)
Some require filming, some just require pulling together existing images, you know, the projects are all over the map but you take your life experience and you just know how to put the bits together in the best way. That's to me the magic. It's how you make these kinds of audio visual communications whether they're virtual reality or old fashioned, you know, video.
Robin (45:13)
But you take your life experience and you just know how to put the bits together in the best way. That's to me the magic. It's how you make these kind of audio visual communications into their virtual reality or old fashioned video together.
Michael Owen (45:33)
together.
Jiani (45:35)
It's kind of like a movie director but more like interactive and always looking for ways to integrate technology, you know, and media into an environment that you'll want to be in. It's like when people watch a movie, it's like, oh, I'm watching this movie, but are they passive, they're more active. So you're building an interactive movie for people. Beautiful.
Robin?
Robin (46:08)
Yeah, I think there have always been two sides to the things that I've enjoyed. One was, like for example, when I was in all the way through school from, you know, K through high school, I loved art class. I loved going in there, paint. Like what I loved about it was...
looking like really I liked really looking at something and trying to recreate that through my own body in a way my own eyes my own mind.
Um, but so while I loved making art, I didn't ever really see myself as an artist, um, which I think is how I've ended up, uh, working with art or doing things about art rather than making art. And at the same time though, um, I loved,
This is going to sound really weird. When I was 12, my friends and I had a friend and we had a business. We did birthday parties for little kids. And I liked being around little kids because they have this optimism and they're laughing all the time and they have tons of energy. So it was always challenging to try to figure out like, what can we do for them that will...
Jiani (47:11)
Hahaha
Robin (47:38)
that they will enjoy and that they won't go crazy with, which has sort of translated into the way that I have ended up relating to clients, which is like listening to them and trying to figure out what...
What is the best thing? What can we do for them? What is the technology? How is the, what is the perspective? What is the story? How can we help them communicate what they wanna do? And those two things have, I think, kind of propelled me back and forth through all the.
turns and twists of my career. And I think that this project that we're working on now, again, combines those two things, because it's all about using art as a way of communicating, as a platform for helping people communicate. So it's just a different way of combining those two things.
Jiani (48:39)
I like how you see art as it's not...
Robin (48:44)
It's, yeah, I mean, it's, you know, it's what we're doing is sort of like media literacy. We're helping people learn how to read an image or read an artwork or read a text. It's the same skills that you would use.
Jiani (49:00)
audio staff.
Robin (49:00)
It's about becoming more aware, right? It's becoming, it's about awareness, right? And I think part of what I loved about making art when I was younger was having to be aware of what I was looking at if I was trying to recreate it or use something in it.
Jiani (49:18)
That's beautiful. Were there any particular challenges that you had to go through that helped you with who you are or helped you with the business?
Robin (49:28)
Oh my gosh, just the challenge of running a business. I mean, it's insane, right? It's really, there are so many things that you have to think about, and those may not be the things you want to think about. So let's just leave it at that for me from a challenge perspective.
Jiani (49:31)
I'm sorry.
Michael Owen (49:40)
Yeah, I think the biggest challenge is always going to be managing people's expectations. And it's people who you collaborate with creatively. It's people who you are offering your services to in a, in a business because you don't want them. You have to make you want them to be happy. That's the total goal. But part making sure they're happy also means that they know.
Robin (49:47)
And that too.
it's what you know yeah
Michael Owen (50:07)
they have an understanding what they're gonna get. And that often you say, we're gonna do this. And if you have completely different views of what that is, somewhere along the line, someone's not going to be happy. So it's really from the very get-go when you embark on a project, you've sorted it out. Everyone understands what the other's thinking or expects.
Jiani (50:37)
And in life, is there any challenges that we have to come through as a human being, or what we call human experience? Are there any challenges that we have to overcome?
Michael Owen (50:51)
Well, I mean, that's the main one, communication. You know, I mean, right now, if you just go to a bigger level, there's a huge problem with communication in this country that needs to be addressed and in the world. Yes. So, um, you know, so, uh, how to
Robin (50:52)
That's the main one, communication. You know, I mean, right now, just go to a bigger level, there's a huge problem with communication. In the world.
Michael Owen (51:13)
Yeah, how to get to the point where you actually aren't just.
Yeah, I mean, part of the big problem now is people are just have a view and you can't or you can't even discuss the opposing views because there's such a great difference that you can't even begin to talk about individual things. It's just such a hard line. And so again, that's what we're hoping that away from any kind of hot issues by getting people to be.
Robin (51:26)
you know, I mean, part of the big problem now, people are, just have a view and you can't argue, you can't even discuss the difference. There's such a great difference that you can't even begin to talk about individual things. Just too far and far. And so again, that's what we're hoping for, away from any kind of hot issues.
by getting people to be critical thinkers, there's a basis for understanding. There's a basis for everyone to be able to explain themselves and come to some kind, even if they don't agree, at least have an understanding of what is it that they're talking about. So that's enhancing communication.
Michael Owen (51:54)
critical thinkers, there's a basis for understanding. There's a basis for everyone to be able to explain themselves and come to some kind, even if they don't agree, at least have an understanding of what it is that they're talking about. So that to me, it's enhancing communication.
Jiani (52:14)
Beautiful.
enhancing communications and find a common place where different interviews do not collide but harmonize.
Michael Owen (52:24)
Yeah.
Robin (52:27)
It's about respecting, being able to respect difference and not be threatened by it and be able to empathize with it.
Jiani (52:33)
It's not the best.
Yeah. So I'm.
Robin (52:39)
and also a willingness to look for a common ground. You know, right now there isn't even that willingness, so.
Jiani (52:49)
Yeah, I think here it takes. So I will conclude this podcast and just one word. So Michael, what do you think is your magic? And Robin, what do you think?
Michael Owen (53:04)
I'm sorry, the...
Jiani (53:06)
More with the beat!
Robin (53:08)
sort of. What do you think is your magic?
Jiani (53:10)
Magic.
Robin (53:19)
Thanks for watching!
Hehehehe Uggggghh
Michael Owen (53:35)
Um.
creation.
Jiani (53:41)
Yeah.
Thank you.
Thank you, Michael. Robert, what do you think is your next?
Robin (53:53)
you. You know, I was gonna what I was gonna say what I think Michael's magic is a sense of humor. Yeah, so mine.
Jiani (54:00)
I'm laughing too Crazy and slow
Robin (54:17)
Well, I don't know what it has been, but what I think it is now is being able to be generous with what I know and what I've learned after being alive for so many years.
Jiani (54:36)
So the growth mindset and share as you grow.
Thank you, thank you Michael and thank you Robin for this wonderful conversation and I hope our audience had a great time tuning in and listening to our stories in this episode. And if you want to find and continually communicate with our guests, check the show notes below and we will include all the information.
follow our guests and hope you reach out to them on LinkedIn, on their business websites and thank you again Michael and Robin for sharing your time and your story and your happiness, humor, struggle, magic with us.
Robin (55:29)
Thank you. Thank you too. Thank you very much, Jiani It was really a pleasure. Thanks a lot.
Michael Owen (55:30)
Thank you. It's a pleasure.
Jiani (55:32)
Thank you.
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The content shared is to highlight the passion and wonder of our guests. It is not professional advice. Please read our evidence-based research to help you develop your unique understanding.
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